[miriya]

chaosek, on 09 March 2011 - 03:25 PM, said:

Though I have no quotes to even suggest this theory, it would explain a lot if the Queen of Dreams was in on the plans of ST, Cots and Tavore. Instructions could be given through dreams and nobody would notice.

I ... don't really think so. (Given, I'm not half-way through SW yet, and so I'm not sure where she's going there) Unless Y'ghatan was something that had to happen, why wipe out so many Bone Hunters? Yes, she herself didn't do it, but given that the plan was to snatch up Leoman and Dunsparrow, it's not like she could have been ignorant, unless we're talking some sort of Lady Envy style 'whoops, I should have what?' moment.



EDIT: HTML HURRRRR

This post has been edited by miriya: 09 March 2011 - 06:11 PM

[Lister of Smeg]

I've been wondering if Silchas Ruin was in cahoots with ST and his allies. He convinces Rud Elalle that Korabas has to be freed, and then fights on her behalf. What other reason, except if he knew she had to break Kaminsod's chains? Unless it was simple compassion, something Korabas deserved a lot of.

[Dutch]

Obdigore, on 09 March 2011 - 05:57 PM, said:

@ Tiam - Nefarious Bredd was either Crump or the Bole Bro, from the descriptions.

I thought Crump was that Bole brother and didn't he run with his knees up his ears?
This Marine just rushed past him

tiam, on 09 March 2011 - 01:36 PM, said:

Dutch, on 09 March 2011 - 10:26 AM, said:

tiam, on 08 March 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

Also, and I admit I may have dreamt this, but didnt nefarius Bredd turn up at the end to help Fiddler then vanish at a later date.

Yeah, laughed my socks off when this happened, Fiddler looking at a small marine rushing past him to fill the gap who said he would take care of it and Fid asking then who the hell he was and the marine answering: Well, I'm Nefarius Bred sir.

It happened after Hedge throwing that dud cusser which cracked open on the helm of that soldier.

Thank you it was like 5 in the morning or something like that when I read that part. Where did he go? Do we hear from him again? I dont think we do unless he was one of the fallen at the barrow?

Actually when Fid asks at the end if anyone has seen where Bred has gone, everyone gives him a blank look like it never happened.

[tiam]

It couldnt have been Crump otherwise Fid would ahve recognised him so it seems likely it was that other Bole. Nice touch that they were jhag inventions with hands made out of iron. The Jaghut really were just nuts.

EDIT- Didnt Bruthen Trana turn up actually in this tragic scene where he walks up to (I assume but I cant remember) Brys who is looking for faith/forgiveness/directions and Bruthen Trana asks him for exactly the same. Just remembered now.

This post has been edited by tiam: 09 March 2011 - 11:32 PM

[miriya]

tiam, on 09 March 2011 - 11:26 PM, said:

It couldnt have been Crump otherwise Fid would ahve recognised him so it seems likely it was that other Bole. Nice touch that they were jhag inventions with hands made out of iron. The Jaghut really were just nuts.

EDIT- Didnt Bruthen Trana turn up actually in this tragic scene where he walks up to (I assume but I cant remember) Brys who is looking for faith/forgiveness/directions and Bruthen Trana asks him for exactly the same. Just remembered now.

Oh, was that Bruthen? Don't ask me why, but for some reason I totally thought it was Trull. =____= That makes so much more sense, though.

[robertk4]

Dutch, on 09 March 2011 - 07:55 PM, said:

Obdigore, on 09 March 2011 - 05:57 PM, said:

@ Tiam - Nefarious Bredd was either Crump or the Bole Bro, from the descriptions.

I thought Crump was that Bole brother and didn't he run with his knees up his ears?
This Marine just rushed past him

tiam, on 09 March 2011 - 01:36 PM, said:

Dutch, on 09 March 2011 - 10:26 AM, said:

tiam, on 08 March 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

Also, and I admit I may have dreamt this, but didnt nefarius Bredd turn up at the end to help Fiddler then vanish at a later date.

Yeah, laughed my socks off when this happened, Fiddler looking at a small marine rushing past him to fill the gap who said he would take care of it and Fid asking then who the hell he was and the marine answering: Well, I'm Nefarius Bred sir.

It happened after Hedge throwing that dud cusser which cracked open on the helm of that soldier.

Thank you it was like 5 in the morning or something like that when I read that part. Where did he go? Do we hear from him again? I dont think we do unless he was one of the fallen at the barrow?

Actually when Fid asks at the end if anyone has seen where Bred has gone, everyone gives him a blank look like it never happened.

Actually there is a conversation between Tarr and Fiddler right after Fiddler pulls Koryk down after Cots stabs TCG. He asks where Nefarias Bredd is and Tarr responds that he was just something they made up on the march to Y'ghatan. Someone had some bad bread, someone called it nefarious and they then made up the story of Nefarias Bredd. Said it was like something Braven Tooth would have done. I could be misreading some marine humor hear but I think thats right. Also first time post so hope it was helpful

[Held]

Lister of Smeg, on 08 March 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:

I think Tavore revealing she is a talon and her stating that she's a child of the Emperor shows she has been in cahoots with ST and Cotillion this whole time. The three of them together plotted out just about everything that happens in the series, with the help of their allies - Hood, Rake, etc.

I've been thinking about her motives a lot since I finished the book and I have just about convinced myself that she was working with/for ST from the start. Her statements to the contrary in DoD in particular may have been a bit of misdirection, though the only reason I can think of for her doing that is so that her soldiers thought they were on their own so they wouldn't look to a god to pull them out at the last second. That way they had to fight to their last breath as there was no retreat.

I looked in other books for dialogue about the Talon and found evidence that does not support any colaberation between Tavore and Cots or ST.

1. Cotillian did not become aware that there were remaining Talon until the battle for the Shadow Throne on Tiste Availi. He was shocked to find a dead Talon there. He told ST that he thought he knew where others might be ... at Raraku.

2. Cots sent Kalim to kill the Talon at Raraku and especially to kill the Talon leader who turned out to be Korbolo Dom. Kalim killed most of the Talon and wounded Korbolo but Quick Ben convinced him to not kill Korbolo instead Kalim gave him to Pearl to return him to Laseen.

3. Korbolo along with Laseen planned to kill Tavore in Malez City. I doubt he would have wanted her dead if he knew she was a Talon. Tavore didn't act like she knew Korbolo in any special way.

4. After Apsalar killed buckets of Claw in Malez City her last contract kill for Cotillian was Pearl. Cots wanted Pear dead and it may have had to do with his taking Korbolo back to Laseen.

4. In Lethros when the epic deck reading occured afterwards Fiddler looks at two cards that he did not play and one was the Unalligned Chain and he made some comment that made me think he named that card as Tavore's. Tavore being the Unaligned Chain makes sense to me given later events.

Tavore said repeatedly that she was not god aligned and she carried the oteral sword so that magic could not manifest near her. If she was alligned with anyone it was with the Eres who I think convinced her to help the Crippled God. The role of the Eres was always puzzeling to me. I hope we learn more about them in future books.

I think it likely that she was a Talon as a young girl when she played war games with Emporer Fists at her home and that when Ganores joined Laseen's army she worked to become Adjunct to perhaps protect him??? Something about his joining Laseen's army started her on her path.

[Jaiden]

Just on a side not, was anyone dissapointed that Draconus didnt show the Errant some love in the Epilogue.

Actually him even just showing up somewhere towards the end would've pleased me but oh well

[Sindriss]

Yeah, I was surprised that we didn't see more to Draconus after killing the two EG's. Of course there was the scene in which ST told him to stay the f''' away and don't mess their plans up. In retrospect, it serves as a pretty potent ending scene with that character, but I would like like to have seen one last pov in which he wonders about the whole mess.

Regarding Nefarious Breed, I doubt he is an actual person. Not only because we get told the story of how he was invented, but also because the other marines doesn't confirm that he was rescued by breed, but just looks surprised. I think it is either a result of fiddler being severely tired and exhausted, or some old bridgeburner ghost that decides to have a little fun with him. Seems the early BB company was big enough so that remembering everyone would be hard.

Shagging Tiam? She is the mother of the eleint, I am sure that she can transform into whatever size and shape that she wants to. In case she wanted to make luuve to Tiste andii or others

[Steve Halter]

Lister of Smeg, on 08 March 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:

I think Tavore revealing she is a talon and her stating that she's a child of the Emperor shows she has been in cahoots with ST and Cotillion this whole time. The three of them together plotted out just about everything that happens in the series, with the help of their allies - Hood, Rake, etc.

I've been thinking about her motives a lot since I finished the book and I have just about convinced myself that she was working with/for ST from the start. Her statements to the contrary in DoD in particular may have been a bit of misdirection, though the only reason I can think of for her doing that is so that her soldiers thought they were on their own so they wouldn't look to a god to pull them out at the last second. That way they had to fight to their last breath as there was no retreat.

Not sure what if it reveals she has been working with ST and C or not. It does explain how she got into contact with Baudin. Also, is the comment that she is a child of the Emperor supposed to be literal (actual descendant) or figurative as in she's carrying on his work?

[D'rek]

Held, on 10 March 2011 - 08:40 AM, said:

Lister of Smeg, on 08 March 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:

I think Tavore revealing she is a talon and her stating that she's a child of the Emperor shows she has been in cahoots with ST and Cotillion this whole time. The three of them together plotted out just about everything that happens in the series, with the help of their allies - Hood, Rake, etc.

I've been thinking about her motives a lot since I finished the book and I have just about convinced myself that she was working with/for ST from the start. Her statements to the contrary in DoD in particular may have been a bit of misdirection, though the only reason I can think of for her doing that is so that her soldiers thought they were on their own so they wouldn't look to a god to pull them out at the last second. That way they had to fight to their last breath as there was no retreat.

I looked in other books for dialogue about the Talon and found evidence that does not support any colaberation between Tavore and Cots or ST.

1. Cotillian did not become aware that there were remaining Talon until the battle for the Shadow Throne on Tiste Availi. He was shocked to find a dead Talon there. He told ST that he thought he knew where others might be ... at Raraku.

2. Cots sent Kalim to kill the Talon at Raraku and especially to kill the Talon leader who turned out to be Korbolo Dom. Kalim killed most of the Talon and wounded Korbolo but Quick Ben convinced him to not kill Korbolo instead Kalim gave him to Pearl to return him to Laseen.

3. Korbolo along with Laseen planned to kill Tavore in Malez City. I doubt he would have wanted her dead if he knew she was a Talon. Tavore didn't act like she knew Korbolo in any special way.

4. After Apsalar killed buckets of Claw in Malez City her last contract kill for Cotillian was Pearl. Cots wanted Pear dead and it may have had to do with his taking Korbolo back to Laseen.

4. In Lethros when the epic deck reading occured afterwards Fiddler looks at two cards that he did not play and one was the Unalligned Chain and he made some comment that made me think he named that card as Tavore's. Tavore being the Unaligned Chain makes sense to me given later events.

Tavore said repeatedly that she was not god aligned and she carried the oteral sword so that magic could not manifest near her. If she was alligned with anyone it was with the Eres who I think convinced her to help the Crippled God. The role of the Eres was always puzzeling to me. I hope we learn more about them in future books.

I think it likely that she was a Talon as a young girl when she played war games with Emporer Fists at her home and that when Ganores joined Laseen's army she worked to become Adjunct to perhaps protect him??? Something about his joining Laseen's army started her on her path.

Following the "death" of Dancer, the Talon was hunted by the Claw and many went into hiding. There are numerous surviving groups of Talons, not necessarily connected. Korbolo was fashioning his own little army of assassins to support his army in the same manner as the original Talons, and so he called them Talons and named himself Master of the Talons (presumably he or some of his assassins had knowledge of the original Talons as they worked in Talon formations, as noted by Kalam).

From Tavore in HoC, we know that some Talon survived and maintained connections with the Malaz nobility in Unta and perhaps elsewhere. Part of this information was given to Laseen and a part of the purge of the nobility (at the start of DG). This is where Baudin comes from - Tavore as a noblewoman had methods of recruiting him.

There's also Throatslitter who got trained by a Talon or more in Li Heng. And there's Hawl who was hiding as a mage in the military. And Ameron.

IMO, all these disparate groups of Talons are different remnants of the organization and not necessarily affiliated with each other.

Steve Halter, on 10 March 2011 - 03:38 PM, said:

Lister of Smeg, on 08 March 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:

I think Tavore revealing she is a talon and her stating that she's a child of the Emperor shows she has been in cahoots with ST and Cotillion this whole time. The three of them together plotted out just about everything that happens in the series, with the help of their allies - Hood, Rake, etc.

I've been thinking about her motives a lot since I finished the book and I have just about convinced myself that she was working with/for ST from the start. Her statements to the contrary in DoD in particular may have been a bit of misdirection, though the only reason I can think of for her doing that is so that her soldiers thought they were on their own so they wouldn't look to a god to pull them out at the last second. That way they had to fight to their last breath as there was no retreat.

Not sure what if it reveals she has been working with ST and C or not. It does explain how she got into contact with Baudin. Also, is the comment that she is a child of the Emperor supposed to be literal (actual descendant) or figurative as in she's carrying on his work?

You can take that comment however you like, it's part of the Tavore mystery! That being said, I find the actual descendant possibility unlikely (and would mean Ganoes and Felisin were, too).

[miriya]

I think her 'child of the emperor' statement is more of a confirmation of ideals; she's working towards the same goal that Kellenved worked towards -- gods/ascendants/whatev, gtfo my empire management. Or something. It's also kind of a quiet fuck you to Laseen.


Spoiler for RotCG/SW:

Spoiler

I wondered this morning, and imagine posting this may be a little premature since I haven't finished SW yet, but I wonder what having a Jhistal Priest of Mael on the Malazan throne is going to mean for the empire? And look, that's two powerful empires that Mael has his watery little hands in, haha.

This post has been edited by miriya: 10 March 2011 - 04:34 PM

[Ceda Cicero]

miriya, on 10 March 2011 - 04:33 PM, said:

I think her 'child of the emperor' statement is more of a confirmation of ideals; she's working towards the same goal that Kellenved worked towards -- gods/ascendants/whatev, gtfo my empire management. Or something. It's also kind of a quiet fuck you to Laseen.


Spoiler for RotCG/SW:

Spoiler

I wondered this morning, and imagine posting this may be a little premature since I haven't finished SW yet, but I wonder what having a Jhistal Priest of Mael on the Malazan throne is going to mean for the empire? And look, that's two powerful empires that Mael has his watery little hands in, haha.

As of RotCG, didn't Mael abandon Mallick? During that scene when he takes the boat to Cawn?

[miriya]

Cicero, on 10 March 2011 - 04:46 PM, said:

miriya, on 10 March 2011 - 04:33 PM, said:

I think her 'child of the emperor' statement is more of a confirmation of ideals; she's working towards the same goal that Kellenved worked towards -- gods/ascendants/whatev, gtfo my empire management. Or something. It's also kind of a quiet fuck you to Laseen.


Spoiler for RotCG/SW:

Spoiler

I wondered this morning, and imagine posting this may be a little premature since I haven't finished SW yet, but I wonder what having a Jhistal Priest of Mael on the Malazan throne is going to mean for the empire? And look, that's two powerful empires that Mael has his watery little hands in, haha.

As of RotCG, didn't Mael abandon Mallick? During that scene when he takes the boat to Cawn?

Oh hell, I must have forgotten this bit completely. And no e-book of this one yet, so not entirely easy to find. I'll look for that, and if it is I totally retract the question.

Spoiler

It makes sense, though; ST'd crap bricks to see his empire aspected because of that particular d-bag.

EDIT: Yep, you totally are. Quote here:

Spoiler

`What are you babbling about!' his passenger fairly howled, hands now fists at his temples.
The voice took on a harsh edge. `I am free of you now, Mallick. Your bindings upon me have frayed, unravelled by the plucking of countless thousands. We are done, you and I. Finished. We shall speak no more. I could crush you now - and I should for all the crimes you have committed. But I will withhold my anger. I have indulged. it too

Holy crap I desperately need a re-read.

This post has been edited by miriya: 10 March 2011 - 05:34 PM

[ritchiediaz]

Just a note on the Sandalath / Korlat father thing, put me down as someone who doesn't think Sandalath was raped.

She specifically states 'I was abandoned'.

This does not sound like rape to me, but being forgotten or cast aside. What that implies for Korlat's pappy I don't know, but I wouldn't base theory of the identity of the father on another theory that she was raped.

I'll pay close attention to Sand's flashbacks on my re-read.

[joshbhoy]

Thought id come back to this thread what with the first Kharkanas book coming out soon. After reading the description I thought, could Korlats father possibly be Vatha Urusander? which would make sense since he was a commoner and figurehead for the commoners during the near civill war (at least thats what i gather from synopsis)

Anyway i guess we will find out at the end of the month when Forge of Darkness comes out but thought id throw a little bit more speculation in there.

Edit: Is there any mention of Vatha Urusander in any of the books? So far im in the middle of a re-read and my memory of the last couple of books is a bit hazy .

This post has been edited by joshbhoy: 15 July 2012 - 11:20 PM

[joshbhoy]

When Steve was on reddit a few months ago someone asked him about information regarding Quick Ben's soletaken form and this was the reply.
"Possible answers are forthcoming in the Kharkanas trilogy, now in progress, but even then, I wouldn't bother looking for it, as revelations won't be arriving until the trilogy's end. Hee hee."


Ive not been on the forum for a while so if im posting things already mentioned let me know.

[Archeokat]

ritchiediaz, on 10 March 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:

Just a note on the Sandalath / Korlat father thing, put me down as someone who doesn't think Sandalath was raped.

She specifically states 'I was abandoned'.

This does not sound like rape to me, but being forgotten or cast aside. What that implies for Korlat's pappy I don't know, but I wouldn't base theory of the identity of the father on another theory that she was raped.

I have to agree here, it doesn't sound like she was raped, though Korlat's insistance that she was impure suggests otherwise. It could be that Korlat isn't wanted by Sand because her birth was the cause of Sand's abandonment. Sand says, in DoD:

"Oh, husband. I was a hostage, nothing more. And then, and then, I lost even that.… 'The First Families sparred. Power was a wayward tide. We were the coins they exchanged. So long as we were never spent, so long as we –" remained unsullied – "remained as we were, the battles saw little blood. We became the currency of power.'"

Korlat could have been the product of that 'unsullying', and not the product of rape (maybe Stockholm syndrome?), but her father may have used Sand in order to hurt MD or Anomander, abandoning her afterwards. This could be what breaks Withal's heart, knowing that Korlat was basically unwanted because she reminded her mother of that betrayal. As to who the father was, I'm still drawing blanks.

[Spidermule]

regarding nefarious bredd

Tarr and co made nefarious up. But maybe the bonehunters actually believed in him.
As a result nefarious bredd came to be. (as the god of the bonehunters?)

[Defiance]

Spidermule, on 20 July 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

regarding nefarious bredd

Tarr and co made nefarious up. But maybe the bonehunters actually believed in him.
As a result nefarious bredd came to be. (as the god of the bonehunters?)

Or, it could just be a fun little metafiction nudge from Erikson.