[Blueiron]

I didn't really use to like SE's poetry. I disliked the lack of structure, and the imagery seemed disconected to me.
It may not be news to many of you, but I only just reaslized why.
Steven Erikson doesn't write poetry with words, he's writing with meanings and ideas. Going back and paying attention when I read the poems with this in mind, I'm really starting to appreciate them much more. Just thought I'd share that.

[nacht]

What do you mean? Can you give an example.

Those Fisher poems. They very really bad. Maybe a problem with the translation from Malazam

[chaosek]

I tried, really tried to read all the poems across all the books (nearly done with reread, page 300 DoD) but most are god awefull. The stories and pieces of history scattered through out are quite nice though and one or two poems make any kind of sense. But most of 'm are a pain for the eyes, but I'll gladly take that as his prose is so good I can forgive him

[Tattersail_]

I read them but don't understand the majority of them. I think because he knows the malazan world so well and the overall picture of a lot of plot lines and were in history, place or who the person is the poem is coming from but I just take them with a pinch of salt, I do not concentrate too much on them, I read them because they give me a feel for the chapter ahead, they break the books up nicely and I do enjoy them being there.

[Sinisdar Toste]

while certainly not a poet laureate or something, SE does have moments of brilliance in that realm i think. one or two have caused me to choke up upon rereading them with a fuller understanding of the series.

[Pig Iron]

If you read with a receptive mind and let the imagery play out without necessarily demanding to understand everything the poems often sets the tone and atmosphere powerfully. I think that might be a key to read the whole series.

(Another fanboy post from me I see).

[Blueiron]

nacht, on 31 January 2011 - 08:40 AM, said:

What do you mean? Can you give an example.

Those Fisher poems. They very really bad. Maybe a problem with the translation from Malazam

Fisher Kel Tath? Sure I'll give one a try. With a couple of caveats: I'm not an english major (not even out of highchool) and am not an analytical genius. Also, neither I nor Steven Erikson are poetic geniuses (in fact, I'm not even sure what the plural of genius is. But I digress )

So here is an SE poem "by" Fisher kel Tath. spoiler tags because without them, this'd be an unforgivably long post for an internet forum.

Spoiler

Do not come here old friend
If you bring bad weather
I was down where the river ran
Running no more
Recall the span of that bridge?
Gone now the fragments grey
And scattered on the sand
Nothing to cross
You can walk the water's flow
Wending slow into the basin
And find the last place where
Weather goes to die
If I see you hove into view
I'll know your resurrection's come
In tears rising to drown my feet
In darkening sky
You walk like a man burned blind
Groping hands out to the sides
I'd guide you but this river
Will not wait
Rushing me out to the swallowing sea
Beneath fleeing birds of white
Do not come here old friend
If you bring bad weather

on the rhythm:

Spoiler

So. On first glance this is basically random prose with line breaks tossed in willy-nilly.

The first question I asked when I saw a similar SE poem for the first time was "wtf is with the line breaks?" Have you ever heard a public speaker who takes breaths in weird places in sentences? (Stuart McClean is an example from Canada) If you stop to think about it, it's strange. But try reading this out loud, or just imagine hearing it, and allow the line breaks to guide your cadence.

on the meaning

Spoiler

Now with that out of the way, meaning. First thing of note: the bookend: "Do not come hear old friend/If you bring bad weather." SE talks in his blog, "life as a human" about "elliptical" writing. He comments (and obviously I paraphrase) that when he repeats something, it is supposed to have a different resonance the second time around; the first time around has one meaning, and the context in between puts the second time around in a new light (forgive me if you've already read that in the blog) So the first time around, it seemed to me like it was just saying 'You may be an old friend, but I don't want your troubles.' Fair enough. In between, the narrator (Fisher) starts talking about a dry riverbed. Incidentally, the lines "Nothing to cross/you can walk the water's flow" struck me as kind of like Jaghut humor style irony – another thing SE seems to throw in occasionally. (I guess you could call it… dry humor *badum-chuck*)

Anyhow, halfway through, the "old friend" being addressed seems to come back, as a resurrection no less. This is information on the old friend he/she/it is, at least metaphorically, dead. Now here's where the meaning falls into place: "you walk like a man burned blind/groping hands out to the sides" So, the old friend seems to actually be the river. And its "resurrection" (which we now know consists of a flood: recall the line "…you hove into view") would sweep the dear narrator out into the sea. So now the bookend comes back. What's the new context? Well, when most people say "bad weather," they're talking about a rainstorm. Why is that significant? A rainstorm might cause a riverbed to flood. Big deal, you say, this whole thing is a stupid joke, from your point of view then? No. The idea, I think, is that one can cause harm without being aware that we are about to. The fact that the narrator calls the river "old friend" and that he says "I'd guide you, but this river will not wait" seems to say to me that , the river, as personified in the poem, has only good intentions, but inadvertently causes the narrator harm.

Please feel free to exclaim that this is all bu||sh*t, as this is all only my opinion on the poem; by no means is it gospel. If you agree with all this and still think this poem sucks, I can see where you are coming from, but I disagree. It isn't great, but it's not terrible.



Now, in grand SE style:



Thus.

[nacht]

HA! Interesting.

Two things I learned.
First I normally would have completely ignored this but since you brought attention to it, I do see that it has some meaning.

Second, I generally don't read poetry and had the impression that a poem has to have some rhyme or some structure (like a sonnet or a haiku) or at least some wordplay and SE's poetry seem to be lacking some "easily" identifiable pattern.
So maybe I should stop treating it as poetry and instead treat it like a humorous riddle, you can have some fun figuring it out.

With that said and the interpretation you provided, I will give my own. I removed the spoiler tags as I dont think they are necessary in this case. My interpretation in italics

Do not come here old friend
If you bring bad weather

Fisher musing about something related to weather. Here he is really hoping to avoid bad weather as it could turn out to be bad for him.


I was down where the river ran
Running no more
Recall the span of that bridge?
Gone now the fragments grey
And scattered on the sand
Nothing to cross

Fisher reminiscing that there was once a bridge on this river, which got washed away and ironically the river itself does not exist now. He might be musing about the impermanence and unpredictability of things


You can walk the water's flow
Wending slow into the basin
And find the last place where
Weather goes to die

You can follow the dry river bid to the Sea if you want.


If I see you hove into view
I'll know your resurrection's come
In tears rising to drown my feet
In darkening sky

Now, he is talking about a flash flood that can be created by a thunderstorm.

You walk like a man burned blind
Groping hands out to the sides

Fisher describing the torrent with some metaphors.


I'd guide you but this river
Will not wait

Fisher has some ascendant related powers that he could use in this case but probably cant control the river that much


Rushing me out to the swallowing sea
Beneath fleeing birds of white

The flash flood would take him for a ride while sea gulls would flow over him.

Do not come here old friend
If you bring bad weather

He is now repeating that he does not want to see bad weather.
This is definitely a demonstration of SE's elliptical writing point (very good point!! Blueiron) and now his original statement is much clearer.

I think SE should break the poem down into paragraphs for simpler folks to get "it" but maybe chose to not to.
He probably left it here for people to get some more value from their investment if they so wish.

Awesome. Thanks for your post.
I might have to read all the poetry now (with this new perspective). Sigh!!


BlueIron: The Mortal Pen of Fisher Tel Kath

[Tattersail_]

do a couple more

[Pig Iron]

Ok nacht you win

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

I liked that analysis. Indeed, a few more would be good, if you have the time!

[Ceda Cicero]

For anyone who hasn't read it, SE's Life as a Human blog entry from May of last year might help shed some light on, among other things, the process behind how SE writes some of the poems. It's also just a pretty cool little read. I figure most or all of you have seen it at least once, but it's very relevant to this topic, so why not throw it up anyway:

http://lifeasahuman....h-is-the-dream/

[nacht]

Pig Iron, on 02 February 2011 - 04:09 PM, said:

Ok nacht you win

Ha. Ha. This is no competion. Only SE knows what he really meant to say with the poem. But BlueIron did show us the path to poetry appreciation

[Blueiron]

Borrowing a technique from silencer, responces in red

nacht, on 02 February 2011 - 08:31 AM, said:

HA! Interesting.

Two things I learned.
First I normally would have completely ignored this but since you brought attention to it, I do see that it has some meaning.

Second, I generally don't read poetry and had the impression that a poem has to have some rhyme or some structure (like a sonnet or a haiku) or at least some wordplay and SE's poetry seem to be lacking some "easily" identifiable pattern.
Yes, poetry traditionally follows specific structural conventions, but modern poetry has ventured into a more free-form style. Even so, SE's poetry is pretty extreme in terms of being free form. I've often thought of it as SE showing us that the Malazan world simply has different traditions and conventions
So maybe I should stop treating it as poetry and instead treat it like a humorous riddle, you can have some fun figuring it out.
Pretty much how I look at it too



With that said and the interpretation you provided, I will give my own. I removed the spoiler tags as I dont think they are necessary in this case. My interpretation in italics

Do not come here old friend
If you bring bad weather

Fisher musing about something related to weather. Here he is really hoping to avoid bad weather as it could turn out to be bad for him.


I was down where the river ran
Running no more
Recall the span of that bridge?
Gone now the fragments grey
And scattered on the sand
Nothing to cross

Fisher reminiscing that there was once a bridge on this river, which got washed away and ironically the river itself does not exist now. He might be musing about the impermanence and unpredictability of things


You can walk the water's flow
Wending slow into the basin
And find the last place where
Weather goes to die

You can follow the dry river bid to the Sea if you want.


If I see you hove into view
I'll know your resurrection's come
In tears rising to drown my feet
In darkening sky

Now, he is talking about a flash flood that can be created by a thunderstorm.

You walk like a man burned blind
Groping hands out to the sides

Fisher describing the torrent with some metaphors.


I'd guide you but this river
Will not wait

Fisher has some ascendant related powers that he could use in this case but probably cant control the river that much


Rushing me out to the swallowing sea
Beneath fleeing birds of white

The flash flood would take him for a ride while sea gulls would flow over him.

Do not come here old friend
If you bring bad weather

He is now repeating that he does not want to see bad weather.
This is definitely a demonstration of SE's elliptical writing point (very good point!! Blueiron) and now his original statement is much clearer.

Cool beans.

I think SE should break the poem down into paragraphs for simpler folks to get "it" but maybe chose to not to.
He probably left it here for people to get some more value from their investment if they so wish.

Awesome. Thanks for your post. You are most welcome, and thank you for the challenge. I don't think I would have bothered, but I've discovered that it's quite enjoyable.
I might have to read all the poetry now (with this new perspective). Sigh!!
lol, me too. It's such an effort, having to go and find more cool stuff, right?

BlueIron: The Mortal Pen of Fisher Tel Kath Do you mind if I use this as my title?

I'd love doing another one soon. We'll see how soon, life's gettin a bit busy just now.

EDIT: funny text colours fixed

EDIT AGAIN: Thank you nacht. I shall strive to prove worthy.

This post has been edited by Blueiron: 03 February 2011 - 12:57 AM

[Salt-Man Z]

I'd love to see you guys' take on my favorite MBotF poem, Fisher's Stone Bowl from RG:

RG [Chapter 14] said:

I took the stone bowl
in both hands
and poured out my time
onto the ground
drowning hapless insects
feeding the weeds
until the sun stood
looking down
and stole the stain

Seeing in the vessel's cup
a thousands cracks
I looked back
the way I came
and saw a trail green
with memories lost
whoever made this bowl
was a fool but the greater
he who carried it

My quick thoughts: Here SE does away with punctuation entirely, as well as eschewing the convention of marking new "sentences" with capitals. It has a nice flow; I like how the lines are broken up, except for the second to last line, which feels to me like it should be two lines. We get some nice alliteration at the end of the first stanza, though I keep wishing the second that last line said "staring down" to better fit the pattern. I get a sense that the poem is about mortality and the frailty of the human body and mind. (Though I'm not entirely sure what Fisher knows about mortality firsthand.)

[Blueiron]

Salt-Man Z, on 03 February 2011 - 02:54 AM, said:

I'd love to see you guys' take on my favorite MBotF poem, Fisher's Stone Bowl from RG:

RG [Chapter 14] said:

I took the stone bowl
in both hands
and poured out my time
onto the ground
drowning hapless insects
feeding the weeds
until the sun stood
looking down
and stole the stain

Seeing in the vessel's cup
a thousands cracks
I looked back
the way I came
and saw a trail green
with memories lost
whoever made this bowl
was a fool but the greater
he who carried it

My quick thoughts: Here SE does away with punctuation entirely, as well as eschewing the convention of marking new "sentences" with capitals. It has a nice flow; I like how the lines are broken up, except for the second to last line, which feels to me like it should be two lines. We get some nice alliteration at the end of the first stanza, though I keep wishing the second that last line said "staring down" to better fit the pattern. I get a sense that the poem is about mortality and the frailty of the human body and mind. (Though I'm not entirely sure what Fisher knows about mortality firsthand.)

Cool! I'll give it a shot tomorrow. You've already pointed out some neat things. (I hadn't thought about the irony of Fisher commenting on mortality. Jahut humor strikes again!)

[Use Of Weapons]

I'd just say that, while there's no formal structure or cadence, there is a loose structure to the first poem. Each set of four lines is in long-long-long-short form, very similar in the first two (where the stresses of 'running no more' and 'nothing to cross' are identical). That sets up expectations for the rhythm of the third short line, and SE throws us by giving us 'Weather goes to die', shining a light on the word 'die' as it sticks out from our expected rhythm set up by the first two stanzas.

[nacht]

Salt-Man Z, on 03 February 2011 - 02:54 AM, said:

I'd love to see you guys' take on my favorite MBotF poem, Fisher's Stone Bowl from RG:

RG [Chapter 14] said:

I took the stone bowl
in both hands
and poured out my time
onto the ground
drowning hapless insects
feeding the weeds
until the sun stood
looking down
and stole the stain

Seeing in the vessel's cup
a thousands cracks
I looked back
the way I came
and saw a trail green
with memories lost
whoever made this bowl
was a fool but the greater
he who carried it

My quick thoughts: Here SE does away with punctuation entirely, as well as eschewing the convention of marking new "sentences" with capitals. It has a nice flow; I like how the lines are broken up, except for the second to last line, which feels to me like it should be two lines. We get some nice alliteration at the end of the first stanza, though I keep wishing the second that last line said "staring down" to better fit the pattern. I get a sense that the poem is about mortality and the frailty of the human body and mind. (Though I'm not entirely sure what Fisher knows about mortality firsthand.)

Hmm, definitely has a some nice sound. I think it is the words "drowning, feeding, looking and seeing". In addition the first stanza has a flow which is actually based on imagining water flowing.
Seems that Fisher is quite depressed. Even if he is immortal, I assume the loss of family, friends and lovers hurts quite a bit especially when your memories of them themselves fade (left with naught but an emotion of grief)

I took the stone bowl
in both hands
and poured out my time

Memories are being compared to water in a stone bowl filled with cracks.
Fisher seems to be going over his memories either to himself or to a group of people (maybe in a tavern). I can imagine him holding his head with both hands. The use of "stone" is interesting. A lot of us can't really change our mentality easily

onto the ground
drowning hapless insects

Maybe he is referring to the people who are being subject to his conversation and pityingly compares them to a bunch of insects accidentally drowned by water

feeding the weeds

A metaphor that this activity is creating even more bad thoughts

until the sun stood
looking down
and stole the stain

until the morning came and lightened him up a bit.

Seeing in the vessel's cup
a thousands cracks

He thinks he has forgotten a lot of details and is wondering about that.

I looked back the way I came
and saw a trail green with memories lost

Again reflecting that he does not remember a lot of stuff, but that his actions/thoughts probably affected a lot of people ("green" may indicate a positive effect). He might be remembering the people but not much the details of his interactions with them


whoever made this bowl was a fool
but the greater he who carried it

God (or whatever) is a fool for giving humans life(or memories), but humans are even worse for carrying the (negative) weight of memories around.



Alright, that's it I always preferred clear communication in life. This poetry business (and art) thrives on uncertainty too much.

[Tattersail_]

I have one.

The painter must be mute
The sculptor deaf
Talents are passed out
Singly
As everyone knows
Oh let them dabble
We smile our indulgence
No end to our talent
For allowances
But talents are passed out
Singly
We permit you one
Worth lauding
The rest may do service
In serviceable fashion
But greatness?
That is a title passed out
Singly
Don't be greedy
Over trying our indulgence
Permission
Belongs to us
Behind the makeshift wall -
The bricks of our
Reasonable scepticism

meh I do not have a clue

[Use Of Weapons]

Tattersail, on 03 February 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:

I have one.

The painter must be mute
The sculptor deaf
Talents are passed out
Singly
As everyone knows
Oh let them dabble
We smile our indulgence
No end to our talent
For allowances
But talents are passed out
Singly
We permit you one
Worth lauding
The rest may do service
In serviceable fashion
But greatness?
That is a title passed out
Singly
Don't be greedy
Over trying our indulgence
Permission
Belongs to us
Behind the makeshift wall -
The bricks of our
Reasonable scepticism

meh I do not have a clue

That's one of my favourites. I interpret it as talking about acheivements, the supression of ambition by those jealous of talent (critics), embittered by years of dashed hopes. Don't reach too far darlings, or you'll outstrip us, and we can't allow that! Like Pratchett's crab bucket, always pulling back those who reach beyond the grasp of the rest.

I love the line: no end to our talent
and the bitchy sting in the tail of the following : for allowances