[D'rek]

You guys seem to like imagining that Laseen is somehow omniscient. You think she knew that Pormqual was incompetent *and* that Rel and Dom were secretly manipulating Pormqual and Sha'ik while building their own secret loyal forces of Talons and Claws and planning to usurp the throne, but she just didn't feel like doing anything about it? For all we know Pormqual was never even incompetent, and Rel just fried his brain and made him completely submissive with some Jhistal magic. If Rel is such a good schemer (and he is), then he probably had Pormqual sending along reports to High Command that reported exactly what High Command wanted to hear and never mentioned that he had a new advisor named Rel.

Likewise, I'm sure Laseen had plenty of other things to busy herself with when she took the throne that assassinating a compatriot who was faking his own death and disappearing anyways wasn't exactly a high priority. Urko, Ameron, etc I'm sure were good at hiding and by the time she had her more important things in order you think she actually knew Urko just happened to be hiding out in a little tower along the sea at whatever exact geographical coordinates so she could send a hit squad after him?

[Illuyankas]

I like to imagine Laseen would send someone she trusts to check up on the person she's handed responsiblity of a continent over to on a regular basis. We're talking a third of the Empire here. If she didn't send someone capable of spotting Pormqual's fuckups or Rel's shenanigans, then she didn't deserve the Empire in the first place.

[D'rek]

Illuyankas, on 29 January 2011 - 05:19 AM, said:

I like to imagine Laseen would send someone she trusts to check up on the person she's handed responsiblity of a continent over to on a regular basis. We're talking a third of the Empire here. If she didn't send someone capable of spotting Pormqual's fuckups or Rel's shenanigans, then she didn't deserve the Empire in the first place.

Well I can't win when some of you are arguing she shouldn't trust her commanders and send spies to watch them, while others of you are saying she needed to trust her people more!

[nacht]

D, on 29 January 2011 - 05:21 AM, said:

Illuyankas, on 29 January 2011 - 05:19 AM, said:

I like to imagine Laseen would send someone she trusts to check up on the person she's handed responsiblity of a continent over to on a regular basis. We're talking a third of the Empire here. If she didn't send someone capable of spotting Pormqual's fuckups or Rel's shenanigans, then she didn't deserve the Empire in the first place.

Well I can't win when some of you are arguing she shouldn't trust her commanders and send spies to watch them, while others of you are saying she needed to trust her people more!

Trust but verify :-)
And alas, she failed at both.

One of the books actually has a snippet before a chapter starts (whatever those are called) summarizing Lasseen's regin from a historical perspective.

[MTS]

I think D'rek's point was that for all we know she did check up on her commanders. The Claw were the secret police of the Empire, it's unthinkable there were no other Claw besides Pearl in all of Seven Cities. Mallick Rel was able to infiltrate the Claw however, so her method of verification was in itself unreliable. But she likely didn't know that until too late.

This post has been edited by MTS: 29 January 2011 - 06:02 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

nacht, on 29 January 2011 - 05:51 AM, said:

D, on 29 January 2011 - 05:21 AM, said:

Illuyankas, on 29 January 2011 - 05:19 AM, said:

I like to imagine Laseen would send someone she trusts to check up on the person she's handed responsiblity of a continent over to on a regular basis. We're talking a third of the Empire here. If she didn't send someone capable of spotting Pormqual's fuckups or Rel's shenanigans, then she didn't deserve the Empire in the first place.

Well I can't win when some of you are arguing she shouldn't trust her commanders and send spies to watch them, while others of you are saying she needed to trust her people more!

Trust but verify :-)
And alas, she failed at both.

One of the books actually has a snippet before a chapter starts (whatever those are called) summarizing Lasseen's regin from a historical perspective.

And yet one of the messages of this series, befittingly, is that History is a harsh Mistress for everyone. We could legitimately take apart every character in this series "historically" to look stupid if we so wished.

[ShadowRaven]

D, on 29 January 2011 - 05:12 AM, said:

You guys seem to like imagining that Laseen is somehow omniscient. You think she knew that Pormqual was incompetent *and* that Rel and Dom were secretly manipulating Pormqual and Sha'ik while building their own secret loyal forces of Talons and Claws and planning to usurp the throne, but she just didn't feel like doing anything about it? For all we know Pormqual was never even incompetent, and Rel just fried his brain and made him completely submissive with some Jhistal magic. If Rel is such a good schemer (and he is), then he probably had Pormqual sending along reports to High Command that reported exactly what High Command wanted to hear and never mentioned that he had a new advisor named Rel.

Likewise, I'm sure Laseen had plenty of other things to busy herself with when she took the throne that assassinating a compatriot who was faking his own death and disappearing anyways wasn't exactly a high priority. Urko, Ameron, etc I'm sure were good at hiding and by the time she had her more important things in order you think she actually knew Urko just happened to be hiding out in a little tower along the sea at whatever exact geographical coordinates so she could send a hit squad after him?

I completely agree with D'rek. Also, even if magical means of communication are available, I don't think we've seen them being able to reach other continents (with the sole exception of the KCCM artifact used by Dujek in MoI), so there is no magical equivalent of a telephone available and information still has to be sent to Unta via messengers, and that takes time. Therefore, even if Laseen does get information about almost everything happening in the empire, plans could have moved ahead already before she gets the info and thus she might be unable to do anything about it.

[nacht]

How Interesting. Here is a long quote from Reaper's Gale on this very topic

Banaschar is brooding in 2nd Maiden Fort

Spoiler

Quote

Folks blissfully unaware of the machinations of politics might well believe that someone like Empress Laseen was omnipotent, that she would entirely as she pleased. And that a High Mage, such as Tayschrenn, was likewise free, unconstrained in his ambitions.

.....

Rebellion in Seven Cities, followed by terrible plague, and suddenly the heart of the Malazan Empre -- Quon Tali - was faced with a shortage of grain. Not so, Banaschar knew, one could go yet further back. Why did the rebellion occur at all? Never mind the convenient prophecies of apocalypse. The crisis was born in the aftermath of Laseen's coup, when virtually all of Kellanved's commanders vanished -- drowned, as the grisly joke went. She sat herself down on the throne, only to find her most able governors and military leaders gone. And into the vacuum of their departure came far less capable and far less reliable people. She should not have been surprised at their avarice and corruption -- for the chapter she had begun in the history of the empire had been announced with betrayal and blood. Cast bitter seeds yield bitter fruit, as the saying went.

Corruption and incompetence. These were rebellion's sparks. Born in the imperial palace in Unta, only to return with a vengeance.

Laseen had used the Claw to achieve her coup. In her arrogance she clearly imagined no-one could do the same, could infiltrate her deadly cadre of assassin. Yet, Banashcar now believed, that is what had happened. And so the most powerful mortal woman in the world had suddenly found herself emasculated, indeed trapped by a host of exigencies, unbearable pressures, inescapable demans. And her most deadly weapon of internal control had been irrevocably compromised.

There had been no civil war -- the Adjunct had seen to that -- yet the enfilade at Malaz City might well have driven the final spike into the labouring heart of Laseen's rule. The Claw had been decimated, perhaps so much so that no one could use it for years to come.

The Claw thad declared war on the wrong people. And so, at long last, Cotillion -- who had once been Dancer -- had his revenge on the organization that had destroyed his own Talon and then lifted Laseen onto the throne. For, that night in Malz City, there had been a Shadow Dance.

Beware of the Shadow dance. Nobody can stand to it. No wonder the Claw got decimated.

The Claw killed the Talon. They must have lost a lot of people in the infighting. Then came the corruption. Then they got infiltrated and the Shadow Dance (and Kalam and T'amber) finished them
Infiltration is bad. It is like the game of "Mafia". some good guys get lynched and some good guys get assassinated by the bad apples.

So once they were fearsome, now alas they have fallen.

HTW, is their any Earth equivalent of the Claw, other than the Ninja, i.e. Empires with people actively engaged in infiltration and assassination.

This post has been edited by nacht: 02 February 2011 - 06:37 AM