[MTS]

Could be, but I doubt it's that simple. We don't even know if the Lady cast an eye on Sort when she left. Plus, we don't know if the Chosen knew about it, it's more likely Sort escaped in the confusion of an attack and they assumed she was dead. As for the status of women among the Chosen, it seems to me it's merely a practical matter - women are weaker than men, and thus advancements through the ranks of the Stormguard for a woman was less usual than those of a male, as men are by and large more natural fighters (and more common in Korelan culture). They're still using them too, Sort's desertion wasn't the reason for the Chosen's disdain for women. Shell stands the wall, after all, and there's a female section commander like Sort.

Quote

He was a man of the spear. He had but two answers for all that existence could possibly throw his way: either the butt or the blade. Nothing need be more complicated than that.
Yet the protectorship had not come to him. Despite five seasons’ seniority. Was he not the Spear of the Wall? Was his service not storied? Now lately he wondered: was there something he lacked? Some quality unfathomable to him? On days such as this Hiam would make him think. That woman, Section Marshal Felis – a woman! Were they in truth that short of men? Yet by his words of support the Lord Protector had won her, helm to sandals. She was his now, would do anything for him. He saw it in her eyes. Hiam could do that with just a word or a glance – what was this the indefinite quality? And most important, was it what was needed by the Chosen at this time?
Or was it the butt or the blade?

Good thought about Tavore though, I'm thinking along the same lines about the supposed betrayal.

This post has been edited by MTS: 10 January 2011 - 12:51 PM

[tiam]

As for women being weaker I dont think thats a factor. In ROTCG Talia syas that sword technique gives them the edge or something like that over the men. I think Greymane says something to that effect in Stonewielder about how they make up for their lack of strength in way of aggression when talking about that Perish woman. I think Quint is old fashioned and maybe remembers a time when woman maybe werent allowed such high positions, probably when they had volunteers and it wasnt so difficult to recruit.

[MTS]

tiam, on 10 January 2011 - 01:14 PM, said:

As for women being weaker I dont think thats a factor. In ROTCG Talia says that sword technique gives them the edge or something like that over the men. I think Greymane says something to that effect in Stonewielder about how they make up for their lack of strength in way of aggression when talking about that Perish woman. I think Quint is old fashioned and maybe remembers a time when woman maybe weren't allowed such high positions, probably when they had volunteers and it wasn't so difficult to recruit.

We're not dealing with 'reality' here, we're dealing with Korelan cultural perceptions. Weakness might not be the factor but in the book the Korelans expressed a few times at least the attitude that women were inferior fighters on the Wall. That's not to say that women couldn't fight, but in a culture where honour killings occur it can be inferred that female warriors were an unusual sight in general, much less ones that were good enough to join the Stormguard and gain prestigious positions, and thus Quint's attitude. It's never said that women weren't allowed high positions at any time in the Wall's history, only that it was very unusual. I don't think it's a matter of being old-fashioned either, another (admittedly old) Stormguard is skeptical about Shell's ability to fight simply based on her womanhood, and although we see many priests of the Lady, IIRC none of them are female.

Corlo:

Quote

Idly, the thought occurred to him that he had yet to meet a female Korelri Chosen – the order must somehow disapprove or work against their promotion.

Quote

After Shell and her partner, Tollen, the Malazan Sixth Army veteran, had stood short stints at various posts along the wall, two Korelri Chosen came for them. They were in holding cells, separated. The Stormguard didn’t seem to know what to do with Shell, being female, and so they emptied out a pen for her private use. Personally, she thought it was more for their sensibilities than hers. She could squat to relieve herself just as easily anywhere – it was they who seemed all shirty about it.

[Abyss]

MTS, on 08 January 2011 - 01:06 PM, said:

... why the need for a 'plant' if the CG is the one feeding her the info? The need for a plant becomes void when the commander of the army is on your side. ...

Don't assume that even if the stated end goal (free the CG) is the same, that the means or outcome are intended to be what either party intends.

flea, on 08 January 2011 - 04:52 PM, said:

...So off goes Tavore and the 14th to free the CG, but for what purpose? Does she play a bigger game? Is she manipulated? ...

Exactly.

MTS, on 10 January 2011 - 01:59 PM, said:

...
Corlo:

Quote

Idly, the thought occurred to him that he had yet to meet a female Korelri Chosen – the order must somehow disapprove or work against their promotion.

Quote

After Shell and her partner, Tollen, the Malazan Sixth Army veteran, had stood short stints at various posts along the wall, two Korelri Chosen came for them. They were in holding cells, separated. The Stormguard didn't seem to know what to do with Shell, being female, and so they emptied out a pen for her private use. Personally, she thought it was more for their sensibilities than hers. She could squat to relieve herself just as easily anywhere – it was they who seemed all shirty about it.

- Abyss, would rep you for quote fu but the function is still wonked.

[champ]

This pretty much points to the BH fighting to release tCG to me...

Quote

'So, we could either find ourselves the weapon in the hands of the gods after all, or, if we don't cooperate, trapped between two blood-thirsty foes.' Even as she spoke those words, Lostara regretted them, Because, once said, everything points to... points to the worst thing imagine. Oh, Tavore, now I understand your defiance when it comes to how history will judge us. And your words that what we will do will be unwitnessed - that was less a promise, I think now. More like a prayer.

Either the FA will suck tCG power dry and use the power to open a gate to obliterate the world or the gods will chain him and suck him dry with betrayel thrown in the mix...

What choice do they have but to release him and go down in history as the ones who did... Could back up a Faradan plant..!

Maybe...

[masan's saddle]

Just to chuck a spanner in the works, Greymane conversed with the Stormriders. Can we logically assume Ruthan Gudd did ? If so why not Faradan Sort ?

Also, slightly off topic and i'm not sure if it has been discussed yet, but Greymane responded to a direct "summons" from the new emperor to lead the expeditionary force and essentially fulfil his "destiny". Rel is a jhistal priest and if memory serves is connected to Mael. I'm pretty sure (which is annoying as I read it only yesterday !) that Orzu mentions the elder god of the sea getting all riled and being responsible for the tsunami at the end. We know Mael bitchslaps the CG at the end of MT......, ARGGHHH i've lost track (again) of where i was going with this. But it definitely ended up with the dagger that Tavore has got and the fact that I am now totally convinced that the baby Held is another piece of the CG, if not his heart.

Apologies for the clusterfuck.

[Unlucky Mancy]

Quote

'So, we could either find ourselves the weapon in the hands of the gods after all, or, if we don't cooperate, trapped between two blood-thirsty foes.' Even as she spoke those words, Lostara regretted them, Because, once said, everything points to... points to the worst thing imagine. Oh, Tavore, now I understand your defiance when it comes to how history will judge us. And your words that what we will do will be unwitnessed - that was less a promise, I think now. More like a prayer.

Just had to say that that quote was super metal, I guess as is most of the series.

-Unlucky Mancy

[L'oric]

masan, on 14 January 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

Just to chuck a spanner in the works, Greymane conversed with the Stormriders. Can we logically assume Ruthan Gudd did ? If so why not Faradan Sort ?

Also, slightly off topic and i'm not sure if it has been discussed yet, but Greymane responded to a direct "summons" from the new emperor to lead the expeditionary force and essentially fulfil his "destiny". Rel is a jhistal priest and if memory serves is connected to Mael. I'm pretty sure (which is annoying as I read it only yesterday !) that Orzu mentions the elder god of the sea getting all riled and being responsible for the tsunami at the end. We know Mael bitchslaps the CG at the end of MT......, ARGGHHH i've lost track (again) of where i was going with this. But it definitely ended up with the dagger that Tavore has got and the fact that I am now totally convinced that the baby Held is another piece of the CG, if not his heart.

Apologies for the clusterfuck.

I thought that Mael was able to break free of the Jhistal rite in ROTCG. Which would reduce Mallick Rel's powers by a whole lot I imagine.

[Abyss]

L, on 15 January 2011 - 07:30 PM, said:

masan, on 14 January 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

...Greymane responded to a direct "summons" from the new emperor to lead the expeditionary force and essentially fulfil his "destiny". Rel is a jhistal priest and if memory serves is connected to Mael. ...

I thought that Mael was able to break free of the Jhistal rite in ROTCG. Which would reduce Mallick Rel's powers by a whole lot I imagine.

Mael did in fact dump Rel in RCG.

Which is interesting because when the Wall comes down and the ocean is rushing in it's suggested that so is Mael.

So despite their break, Rel actually did Mael a favor when he sent Greymane and co in to Korelri. Interesting...


- Abyss, interested...

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

My input here is that, we haven't been told anywhere that Sort has stood the Wall -- she's never chosen to talk about it herself and the only time it's mentioned is through the speculation of other characters based upon the fact that her scabbard resembles that of the Stormguard, which she could have come across in other ways than standing the wall.

Now, I'm not saying that she definitely didn't stand the wall, but I am saying that she didn't definitely stand it. We all know that assuming things is a dangerous game in this place.

[MTS]

Even if she didn't stand the Wall, she's crossed paths with them before.

Quote

Next was Faradan Sort, who'd served all over the place and maybe even stood the Stormwall - Ruthan, who knew more about that than most, suspected it was true. She held herself like someone who'd known the worst and never wanted to know it again. But there were experiences that a person could never leave behind, could never, ever forget. Besides, Ruthan had seen the etching on Sort's sword, and that kind of damage could only come from the deadly touch of wand-magic.