[QuickTidal]

Back on topic:

Yeah, I have also have a real belief that what Jenisapt Rul said about the connection for Strange between the upcoming Arkham City and the new Bat film is on purpose. He looks really good int he game trailers too.

[amphibian]

QuickTidal, on 05 January 2011 - 05:26 PM, said:

Deep breath. The Joker was not at that party to kill people. In a film where he killed all the people he wanted to without compunction or hesitation, he doesn't have any reason to stand around NOT killing folk he wants to kill.

If the Joker crashes a party to find Dent, finds Batman there and gets rid of Batman, why doesn't he continue finding Dent?

Quote

Not joking about Dent being plotline A. Nolan himself went on record before TDK came out and said that this film was about the downfall of Dent, and that The Joker was the catalyst to that downfall. Sorry dude, but I doubt I'd argue with the director.

I'm aware Nolan said that. However, the story is such that the Joker takes prominence over Dent. The story begins with the Joker, is propelled by the Joker's insanity and reaches its heights because of the Joker (and Ledger's performance). The Dent storyline takes a backseat to it in every way, but setting up the fall in Gotham's graces for Batman - which still didn't make sense because the Batman saved everyone's asses in the first movie, stopped the boats from blowing up and was awesome during the entire story.

Quote

The tech stuff, as was the case with BB had to have real world applications as far as Nolan and the producers were concerned. They always said that Fox's designs are based on things that COULD feasibly be done today.

Yes, cell phones which emit high frequencies that shut down the entire power supply of buildings are feasible. So is sonar mapping the same building with the same phone...

Quote

Rachel works for the DA....the DA is entitled by nature of his job to interrogate the guy they will put on the stand (as is always the case)...vis a vis, he has Rachel..his underling does it.

District attorneys don't handle the initial interrogations. They're not equipped to do that. They come in after the physical evidence has been assembled, the interrogations done and the case almost entirely put together. Even on high profile cases, like the Joker's would have been, there'd have been a D.A. in the observation room and working very closely with the cops, but no initial interrogation. It was an excuse to get more acting out of Meltyface.

Quote

Dent DOES go at the Joker. Gordon visits him and doesn't appease him about not saving Rachel...and the second thing he does is go at the Joker in the hospital before it blows up...and the Joker fends off Dents accusations and points him like a weapon at the police. So he goes for Gordon's family. That's like a no-brainer.

Dent believing the Joker does not compute. The Joker killed Rachel. Two Face being too weak to physically go after the Joker does, especially after all the trauma he's been through. There should have been hate between the two - instead of acceptance and easy manipulation. Two Face is still Dent at his core - a very smart, driven individual who wants to rid Gotham of what he perceives as evil.

I pick out these flaws in the film, not to show another movie as "perfect", but to show that it has more problems than something I'd consider my own favorite film. I call them problems because the movie very seriously attempts to tackle these issues of psychological derangement, the fall from grace, the procedure of the legal system, the nature of evil etc. Because of its enormous ambitions, the film's achievement of most of its goals, while still being a gigantic hit, is definitely commendable, but I would not place it within my top 20 or so movies ever list.

Within that 20 would be movies with severely screwed up logic (like Point Break), but since they are much less serious and much less tied to the plot, I don't detract from them as heavily.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 05 January 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 05 January 2011 - 05:26 PM, said:

Deep breath. The Joker was not at that party to kill people. In a film where he killed all the people he wanted to without compunction or hesitation, he doesn't have any reason to stand around NOT killing folk he wants to kill.

If the Joker crashes a party to find Dent, finds Batman there and gets rid of Batman, why doesn't he continue finding Dent?

Quote

Not joking about Dent being plotline A. Nolan himself went on record before TDK came out and said that this film was about the downfall of Dent, and that The Joker was the catalyst to that downfall. Sorry dude, but I doubt I'd argue with the director.

I'm aware Nolan said that. However, the story is such that the Joker takes prominence over Dent. The story begins with the Joker, is propelled by the Joker's insanity and reaches its heights because of the Joker (and Ledger's performance). The Dent storyline takes a backseat to it in every way, but setting up the fall in Gotham's graces for Batman - which still didn't make sense because the Batman saved everyone's asses in the first movie, stopped the boats from blowing up and was awesome during the entire story.

Quote

The tech stuff, as was the case with BB had to have real world applications as far as Nolan and the producers were concerned. They always said that Fox's designs are based on things that COULD feasibly be done today.

Yes, cell phones which emit high frequencies that shut down the entire power supply of buildings are feasible. So is sonar mapping the same building with the same phone...

Quote

Rachel works for the DA....the DA is entitled by nature of his job to interrogate the guy they will put on the stand (as is always the case)...vis a vis, he has Rachel..his underling does it.

District attorneys don't handle the initial interrogations. They're not equipped to do that. They come in after the physical evidence has been assembled, the interrogations done and the case almost entirely put together. Even on high profile cases, like the Joker's would have been, there'd have been a D.A. in the observation room and working very closely with the cops, but no initial interrogation. It was an excuse to get more acting out of Meltyface.

Quote

Dent DOES go at the Joker. Gordon visits him and doesn't appease him about not saving Rachel...and the second thing he does is go at the Joker in the hospital before it blows up...and the Joker fends off Dents accusations and points him like a weapon at the police. So he goes for Gordon's family. That's like a no-brainer.

Dent believing the Joker does not compute. The Joker killed Rachel. Two Face being too weak to physically go after the Joker does, especially after all the trauma he's been through. There should have been hate between the two - instead of acceptance and easy manipulation. Two Face is still Dent at his core - a very smart, driven individual who wants to rid Gotham of what he perceives as evil.

I pick out these flaws in the film, not to show another movie as "perfect", but to show that it has more problems than something I'd consider my own favorite film. I call them problems because the movie very seriously attempts to tackle these issues of psychological derangement, the fall from grace, the procedure of the legal system, the nature of evil etc. Because of its enormous ambitions, the film's achievement of most of its goals, while still being a gigantic hit, is definitely commendable, but I would not place it within my top 20 or so movies ever list.

Within that 20 would be movies with severely screwed up logic (like Point Break), but since they are much less serious and much less tied to the plot, I don't detract from them as heavily.

The cops are on the way, and he is in a room filled with people. He has a knife, or at best, knives. Even a mastermind criminal isn't stupid enough to basically take the chance that like 50 people couldn't overpower a guy with a knife.

I really can't continue to argue the fact that the main plotline is Dent. It is, that's how the movie is written. To me, the Joker stands out in every scene he is in....but the psychological breakdown in Dent is just as compelling...just in a different way. I call agree to disagree on that point yes?

The tech stuff. Neither one of us can speculate beyond a laymans public belief of what exists or can exist. We don't have military defense contracts as far as I can tell. LOL. All I know is that if you told me back when Ghost In The Shell: Stand Alone Complex (anime) aired in like 2004 that 3 years later someone would take the idea of stealth coats that bend light around them to make people invisible and make the idea reality, I'd have thought you were nuts. In the same vein, I am not going to discount the tech in TDK because we have no way of knowing what governmental R&D have invented that we don't know about.

Dent doesn't know that the Joker killed Rachel. The Joker claims innocence that he can back up cause he was in jail, and he wasn't responsible for the people who did it....a fact that Dent knew before he was captured, so Dent goes to the next thing that makes sense...and that's the cops.

Not even putting it in your top 20? Wowzers, you didn't care for it. LOL

Again, thanks for providing the debate....work is boring today. hehe.

[amphibian]

QuickTidal, on 05 January 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

The cops are on the way, and he is in a room filled with people. He has a knife, or at best, knives. Even a mastermind criminal isn't stupid enough to basically take the chance that like 50 people couldn't overpower a guy with a knife.

He has several goons with him. Didn't you just watch the movie?

Quote

The tech stuff. Neither one of us can speculate beyond a laymans public belief of what exists or can exist. We don't have military defense contracts as far as I can tell. LOL. All I know is that if you told me back when Ghost In The Shell: Stand Alone Complex (anime) aired in like 2004 that 3 years later someone would take the idea of stealth coats that bend light around them to make people invisible and make the idea reality, I'd have thought you were nuts. In the same vein, I am not going to discount the tech in TDK because we have no way of knowing what governmental R&D have invented that we don't know about.

1) Current attempts at stealth coats don't actually work in any way like the Ghost in the Shell tech or the A Scanner Darkly suits. We have nothing even approximating those for a moving human being.

2) You're not prepared to dismiss a high pitched screech that knocks out all power in a multimillion dollar corporate building? An EMP I could see as being feasible, but a screech?

Quote

Dent doesn't know that the Joker killed Rachel. The Joker claims innocence that he can back up cause he was in jail, and he wasn't responsible for the people who did it....a fact that Dent knew before he was captured, so Dent goes to the next thing that makes sense...and that's the cops.

Dent knows it was the Joker. The goons who took him, the people who talked to him post-rescue, the news etc. etc.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 05 January 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

He has several goons with him. Didn't you just watch the movie?

I did, which is how I knoweth of what I speak sir. At best he has four guys....against 50 guests. The math is simply not there. again, the joker is aware that him and a few thugs are not going to be able to kill everyone...and again if the joker wanted anyone dead he would have killed them as he did...at every... other... instance... in the film when someone needed to die, he doesn't hesitate. You seem to want to ignore this fact, I can't imagine why.

Quote

1) Current attempts at stealth coats don't actually work in any way like the Ghost in the Shell tech or the A Scanner Darkly suits. We have nothing even approximating those for a moving human being.

Like I said before...as far as I know, you haveth no defense contracts. I'd wager various world governments have shtuff you can't even imagine sir. It's pure speculation on your part.

Quote

Dent knows it was the Joker. The goons who took him, the people who talked to him post-rescue, the news etc. etc.

Disagree. The Joker has an alibi. Nuff said.

[amphibian]

QuickTidal, on 05 January 2011 - 07:03 PM, said:

I did, which is how I knoweth of what I speak sir. At best he has four guys....against 50 guests. The math is simply not there. again, the joker is aware that him and a few thugs are not going to be able to kill everyone...and again if the joker wanted anyone dead he would have killed them as he did...at every... other... instance... in the film when someone needed to die, he doesn't hesitate. You seem to want to ignore this fact, I can't imagine why.

Gah - I'm not saying he wants to kill the people at the party. He wants Dent. Killing someone or threatening to kill/maim someone at the Dent fundraiser seems like a brilliant way to do so, especially since Dent was there/is there/will be there to the best of his limited knowledge.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 05 January 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 05 January 2011 - 07:03 PM, said:

I did, which is how I knoweth of what I speak sir. At best he has four guys....against 50 guests. The math is simply not there. again, the joker is aware that him and a few thugs are not going to be able to kill everyone...and again if the joker wanted anyone dead he would have killed them as he did...at every... other... instance... in the film when someone needed to die, he doesn't hesitate. You seem to want to ignore this fact, I can't imagine why.

Gah - I'm not saying he wants to kill the people at the party. He wants Dent. Killing someone or threatening to kill/maim someone at the Dent fundraiser seems like a brilliant way to do so, especially since Dent was there/is there/will be there to the best of his limited knowledge.

Sorry, I misunderstood your initial complaint then.

Joker, while looking for Dent holds Rachel hostage with his knife to get at Dent (doing exactly what you asked), and Batman eventually stops him, but then Rachel is thrown out the window. The fact that the Joker disappears after this scene means he decided his shot at getting Dent at the party didn't work, and instead of doing a search or threatening anyone else he bails out. The Joker, you'll find as a character, does this a lot, why keep fighting when you can bail out and regroup. It's that same old argument that if everyone did everything you expect them to in a film then the film would be boring. At least that's how I see it.

Another agree to disagree then.

[Primateus]

You people are not looking at it the right way.

Batman Returns had penguins armed with rocket launchers....That's PENGUINS ARMED WITH ROCKET LAUNCHERS!!!

How awesome is that?

Sure, you see a picture of a Panda with a gatling gun and everyone is like "uhhhhh, that's so totally cool, because the Panda is near-extinct and need to defend itself"

But give a penguin a rocket launcher and suddenly you've gone too far!

And just so you remember...

[QuickTidal]

Primateus, on 05 January 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:

You people are not looking at it the right way.

Batman Returns had penguins armed with rocket launchers....That's PENGUINS ARMED WITH ROCKET LAUNCHERS!!!

How awesome is that?

Sure, you see a picture of a Panda with a gatling gun and everyone is like "uhhhhh, that's so totally cool, because the Panda is near-extinct and need to defend itself"

But give a penguin a rocket launcher and suddenly you've gone too far!

And just so you remember...

Oh indeed. In theory penguins with rocket launcher backpacks are the pinnacle of awesome....I'm just not sure about the 90's style execution, but you have a point. LOL!

[QuickTidal]

and it is now official....Warner Bros. released a press release....Tom Hardy is playing Bane and Anne Hathaway will be playing Selina Kyle/Catwoman.

...and I love me some Anne Hathaway, so that's good for me.

..and Tom Hardy is good in pretty much everything he does.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

QuickTidal, on 19 January 2011 - 06:01 PM, said:

and it is now official....Warner Bros. released a press release....Tom Hardy is playing Bane and Anne Hathaway will be playing Selina Kyle/Catwoman.

...and I love me some Anne Hathaway, so that's good for me.

..and Tom Hardy is good in pretty much everything he does.

Hmmm, I wonder if they're going with the Knightfall story. It's the same dark mood.

[QuickTidal]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 19 January 2011 - 06:04 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 19 January 2011 - 06:01 PM, said:

and it is now official....Warner Bros. released a press release....Tom Hardy is playing Bane and Anne Hathaway will be playing Selina Kyle/Catwoman.

...and I love me some Anne Hathaway, so that's good for me.

..and Tom Hardy is good in pretty much everything he does.

Hmmm, I wonder if they're going with the Knightfall story. It's the same dark mood.

I was wondering the same thing.

It will be nice to see Bane represented in film as he is in the comics, a brutally intelligent guy who at times has even worked with Batman, a scientist, linguist, and kind of a dark mirror of Bats sometimes...I wonder if they will have him working with batman only to turn on him.....

...also I wonder if the teddy bear with the hole in it's back for a knife will appear...LOL

Just one more villain that was ruined by the Shumacher Batfilms. What he did to Bane was such an abomination.

[amphibian]

QuickTidal, on 19 January 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

I was wondering the same thing.

It will be nice to see Bane represented in film as he is in the comics, a brutally intelligent guy who at times has even worked with Batman, a scientist, linguist, and kind of a dark mirror of Bats sometimes...I wonder if they will have him working with batman only to turn on him.....

...also I wonder if the teddy bear with the hole in it's back for a knife will appear...LOL

Just one more villain that was ruined by the Shumacher Batfilms. What he did to Bane was such an abomination.

I agree with everything you said here.

I got the novelization of Knightfall (shitty mass-market paperback with inked, but no color illustrations interspersed here and there) and Bane became my second favorite Batman villain ever.

I wonder what route they're going to take with the Muscles and the compound. They could go the Hulk route and make it all CGI obviously super-human stuff, or perhaps the subtler tack of slightly enhanced reality. What I'm envisioning for the latter is Hardy being only slightly bigger, much faster and maybe more pain resistant, while focusing on Bane's using his intelligence to neutralize Batman's advantages.

[RodeoRanch]

Mmmm, Anne Hathaway!

[QuickTidal]

I think they could do him with a bit more muscle on him and go for realism...he's done beefier roles before..

like this

[Grief]

QuickTidal, on 19 January 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

Bauchelain the Evil, on 19 January 2011 - 06:04 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 19 January 2011 - 06:01 PM, said:

and it is now official....Warner Bros. released a press release....Tom Hardy is playing Bane and Anne Hathaway will be playing Selina Kyle/Catwoman.

...and I love me some Anne Hathaway, so that's good for me.

..and Tom Hardy is good in pretty much everything he does.

Hmmm, I wonder if they're going with the Knightfall story. It's the same dark mood.

I was wondering the same thing.

It will be nice to see Bane represented in film as he is in the comics, a brutally intelligent guy who at times has even worked with Batman, a scientist, linguist, and kind of a dark mirror of Bats sometimes...I wonder if they will have him working with batman only to turn on him.....

If so it'd be nice to see them do so over more than once films(are there intentions to go beyond this one?). Usually these films don't give that kind of thing enough build up, making it very predictable when the guy the protagonist's been working with betrays him.

[Darkwatch]

I must say I'm also liking the idea of Hathaway as Catwoman.

[Tsundoku]

QuickTidal, on 19 January 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

Bauchelain the Evil, on 19 January 2011 - 06:04 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 19 January 2011 - 06:01 PM, said:

and it is now official....Warner Bros. released a press release....Tom Hardy is playing Bane and Anne Hathaway will be playing Selina Kyle/Catwoman....and I love me some Anne Hathaway, so that's good for me...and Tom Hardy is good in pretty much everything he does.

Hmmm, I wonder if they're going with the Knightfall story. It's the same dark mood.

I was wondering the same thing. It will be nice to see Bane represented in film as he is in the comics, a brutally intelligent guy who at times has even worked with Batman, a scientist, linguist, and kind of a dark mirror of Bats sometimes...I wonder if they will have him working with batman only to turn on him........also I wonder if the teddy bear with the hole in it's back for a knife will appear...LOLJust one more villain that was ruined by the Shumacher Batfilms. What he did to Bane was such an abomination.

Agreed on Bane - easily one of the most interesting comic book "villains" ever.

Grief, on 19 January 2011 - 09:13 PM, said:

If so it'd be nice to see them do so over more than once films(are there intentions to go beyond this one?). Usually these films don't give that kind of thing enough build up, making it very predictable when the guy the protagonist's been working with betrays him.

The trouble with Bane as a character is to do his story any kind of justice means you need at least 2 long (2.5 hour) films, so as to include any other introduced characters as well without suffering for the shorter format of film. I'm not talking about the Knightfall stuff, or even Venom, just how where he came from shaped who he is and the way he goes about things ... and the way he can be beaten.
Remember the brutal lesson of Spiderman 3 here. Too many plots in a short time span with absolutely no sense or development.

On Venom, I'd prefer to see a minimalised version of it - sufficiently enhanced speed, strength, endurance and pain tolerance, but not to superhuman levels. Remember also that once Bane got off the juice he became even deadlier when he recognised that his reliance on the juice clouded his mind and made him over-reliant on it.

Darkwatch, on 19 January 2011 - 10:05 PM, said:

I must say I'm also liking the idea of Hathaway as Catwoman.

Oh yeah, she's going to fill out that catsuit so very, VERY nicely.

I'd personally like to see a duology of the Catwoman/Bane/Talia al'Ghul stories.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 20 January 2011 - 03:20 AM

[McLovin]

Sombra, on 20 January 2011 - 03:14 AM, said:

Oh yeah, she's going to fill out that catsuit so very, VERY nicely.

I'm surprised everyone is digging this so much. I think it's a horrible choice.

She's a decent actress, but she's more of a Batgirl than a Catwoman, to me.

[Tsundoku]

McLovin, on 20 January 2011 - 01:43 PM, said:

Sombra, on 20 January 2011 - 03:14 AM, said:

Oh yeah, she's going to fill out that catsuit so very, VERY nicely.

I'm surprised everyone is digging this so much. I think it's a horrible choice.

She's a decent actress, but she's more of a Batgirl than a Catwoman, to me.

Your choice?