[chaosek]

GingerBreadMan, on 30 December 2010 - 11:41 AM, said:

amphibian, on 30 December 2010 - 07:42 AM, said:

Abyss, on 30 December 2010 - 06:51 AM, said:

there seem to be two non-endings... Kiska and Leoman sitting in a tree on the edge of chaos, and the near complete lack of explanation for what was up with the Stormriders.

Didn't Kiska and Leoman end up on the Shore? They're probably farther down it than the Shake in Kharkanas, but it seems like a good place for them and Tayschrenn to pop up for The Crippled God.

Mother Dark, Tayschrenn, Yedan Derryg, some gigantic dragon, Twilight, the Shake, Kiska, Leoman, some gigantic figure seen at the end of Stonewielder, Withal, Withal's bitchy Tiste Andii wife, the Nachts, potentially the Tiste Liosan etc.

That's a pretty good convergence building there.

Has there been any discussion about WHO the giant figure is?

Am I the only one thinking the Azath builder?

Actually I was thinking it was Mother Dark Kiska is seeing. The giant is enormous being that big that if kiska was near it's foot, she wouldn't see its toes. The Azathbuilder wasn't that huge and I think the azathbuilder was suppossed to be in the dragon realm. Very big and black, hence my though of Mother Dark. Kind of Killy but much much bigger.

[Paran]

Or it could be Rake's new form?

Agree with a lot said here. ICE's pacing was good, but couldn't hit the high notes or low notes. Characters failed to stand out as much as they should have (except for Manask) given their intros. Characters seemed to consistently fail to jump off the page for me. Suth getting KO'd at the "opportune" time got a bit old, and ICE didn't have any of the devious "back end operations" that go on in the armies - dodgy storemen, betting games, etc that have been excellent in providing relief and depth to the armies in other books. Kiska was way too naive for a claw/bodyguard too.


Still, plot was great and the whole Korel continent came alive, so that was excellent work.

[Abyss]

Paran, on 07 January 2011 - 03:25 AM, said:

... ICE didn't have any of the devious "back end operations" that go on in the armies - dodgy storemen, betting games, etc that have been excellent in providing relief and depth to the armies in other books. ...

In the first Suth section we see his Sgt bribe for better armour, and Dim fight another squad's heavy to keep it.

We see all the weirdness attached to 'Hunter' and Faro, the sappers stealing munitions every chance they get, some fairly nasty rivalry and the fishing thing during the seige at the bridge.

Plus a lot of neat bits as the squads warmed up to Greymane, Kyle and Rillish.

And we got 'Always an even exchange', which was a glorious shout-back to GotM.

Point being i think ICE actually did add some nice touches to the internal workings of a Malazan army.

[MTS]

Agreed. I mean, there was nothing quite like the scorpion fighting, but I thought ICE did very well in that respect. I think the problem was the soldiers weren't quite as memorable or enjoyable to read about as those in the 14th and the Host, and so those sort of details just didn't have as much impact on the reader.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

MTS, on 07 January 2011 - 05:53 AM, said:

Agreed. I mean, there was nothing quite like the scorpion fighting, but I thought ICE did very well in that respect. I think the problem was the soldiers weren't quite as memorable or enjoyable to read about as those in the 14th and the Host, and so those sort of details just didn't have as much impact on the reader.

There was the cockroach racing on the way back. Although admittedly it wasn't nearly as detailed.

[Roldom]

Vengeance, on 30 December 2010 - 06:49 PM, said:

From what we saw with the depositing of Rillish at the fishing vessel I think that the storm riders now have access to all of the seas of WU. Unfortunately we didn't learn about what brought them to Wu or what their ultimate aim is. It does look like they might be hunting the crippled god though.

wasnt the fishing vessel near malaz though? or am i misremembering? the Stormriders already had access to malaz, and with unta being a port city, why didnt they just take him there? lazy sods....
That the stormwall simply stopped them going through Korel, and didnt affect them going to other places which is why they managed to go to malaz in NoK.


I got the idea, not sure where, that the storm riders wanted to do there pilgrimage to the ice fields (possibly linked too the imprisoned creature that ussi meets.) The lady was just something that really pissed them off on the way and annoyed them so much they decided to kill her off. so that she built the stormwall to protect herself because she couldnt move out of the way

[Sinisdar Toste]

Roldom, on 10 January 2011 - 04:41 AM, said:

Vengeance, on 30 December 2010 - 06:49 PM, said:

From what we saw with the depositing of Rillish at the fishing vessel I think that the storm riders now have access to all of the seas of WU. Unfortunately we didn't learn about what brought them to Wu or what their ultimate aim is. It does look like they might be hunting the crippled god though.

wasnt the fishing vessel near malaz though? or am i misremembering? the Stormriders already had access to malaz, and with unta being a port city, why didnt they just take him there? lazy sods....
That the stormwall simply stopped them going through Korel, and didnt affect them going to other places which is why they managed to go to malaz in NoK.


I got the idea, not sure where, that the storm riders wanted to do there pilgrimage to the ice fields (possibly linked too the imprisoned creature that ussi meets.) The lady was just something that really pissed them off on the way and annoyed them so much they decided to kill her off. so that she built the stormwall to protect herself because she couldnt move out of the way

i had the thought once or twice too, but i don't think that the lady was just a way-station on the quest. i think they were after her specifically, and that's why they were so set on the coast of korel. all they can tell is the fragments are somewhere beyond the wall but the wall is saturated with her power and the blood of a lot of people, so its part of the problem. it's a gigantic fucking sacrificial altar. if it weren't for the stormwall and the ladies fragments, one of which was on the isle of korel originally (thus the original problem with the settlers), the SR could probably swim where they willed. why they had such a fanatical hate on for the lady in the first place is still a mystery but this would explain why they didn't just go around the wall.

[Epiph]

Abyss, on 27 December 2010 - 05:40 AM, said:

buddhacat, on 25 December 2010 - 09:29 PM, said:

The glossary at the end says the Priestess was Letherii...

i totally did not see that. rep for powers of observation.

Still that doesn't preclude her being Edur, even so.

I also assumed she was Letherii in RotCG. I think the confusion comes from Ereko or Traveller calling her one of "their" witch women, which people assumed meant Edur. But we never see Edur ladies with Rhulad's raiders, and so the logical assumption is actually that she was Letherii. Also, when Ivanr looks into her eyes, he mentions the scars and misuse that must have plagued her former life, which sounded to me like a dead give-away that she was an Edur slave.

[D'rek]

Epiph, on 10 January 2011 - 08:29 AM, said:

Abyss, on 27 December 2010 - 05:40 AM, said:

buddhacat, on 25 December 2010 - 09:29 PM, said:

The glossary at the end says the Priestess was Letherii...

i totally did not see that. rep for powers of observation.

Still that doesn't preclude her being Edur, even so.

I also assumed she was Letherii in RotCG. I think the confusion comes from Ereko or Traveller calling her one of "their" witch women, which people assumed meant Edur. But we never see Edur ladies with Rhulad's raiders, and so the logical assumption is actually that she was Letherii. Also, when Ivanr looks into her eyes, he mentions the scars and misuse that must have plagued her former life, which sounded to me like a dead give-away that she was an Edur slave.

I thought she was Edur because she orders the Edur captain about without any respect or honirifics, which would seem odd to me for a Letheri slave.

[MTS]

You're assuming all Letherii with the fleet are slaves, when that's likely not the case. They have an empire to run, all their significant officers can't and won't be Edur, and we saw Letherii ordering Edur about in RG. It's just as likely she was a cadre mage assigned to the ship, or something like that. It's said she has 'spilt much blood', and that it has scarred her. That's odd for a Letherii slave, yet since we've never seen Edur women actively engage in war, it's just as if not more so for an Edur woman, thus I'm skeptical.

This post has been edited by MTS: 11 January 2011 - 07:30 PM

[Epiph]

Both good points that I missed.

[Steve Halter]

polishgenius, on 20 December 2010 - 06:20 PM, said:

Quote

But is that actually accurate? Doesn't Edgy and ST have a chat along with Hood and Cots at the beginning of TtH?

Did ST and Edgy talk personally though? I could be wrong, I don't remember that scene very well, but that was the impression I got from Warran's reaction there.

ST and Edgewalker have a little chat at the end of Night of Knives. Edge basically tells ST that ST isn't his boss.

[Hetan]

D, on 11 January 2011 - 05:34 PM, said:

Epiph, on 10 January 2011 - 08:29 AM, said:

Abyss, on 27 December 2010 - 05:40 AM, said:

buddhacat, on 25 December 2010 - 09:29 PM, said:

The glossary at the end says the Priestess was Letherii...

i totally did not see that. rep for powers of observation.

Still that doesn't preclude her being Edur, even so.

I also assumed she was Letherii in RotCG. I think the confusion comes from Ereko or Traveller calling her one of "their" witch women, which people assumed meant Edur. But we never see Edur ladies with Rhulad's raiders, and so the logical assumption is actually that she was Letherii. Also, when Ivanr looks into her eyes, he mentions the scars and misuse that must have plagued her former life, which sounded to me like a dead give-away that she was an Edur slave.

I thought she was Edur because she orders the Edur captain about without any respect or honirifics, which would seem odd to me for a Letheri slave.

We saw in BH when Samar and Karsa meet the Edur and Hanradi Khalag that Feather Witch was definitely the subordinate.

Which doesn't mean this witch is Letherii either I suppose - I think it's just a matter of writing styles.

Which brings me on to one thing that bugged me - Bloodflies. Now when we met those in DG they were dreadful things - the whole scene with Felisin and the scars and Heboric's special tincture to get the maggots out without deadening the flesh to much. In this book they were no threat at all. Still haven't finished it, but I'm getting there.

[Sinisdar Toste]

didn't they leave kiska and leoman dripping blood? maybe because they're not real bloodflies they can't lay eggs in the wounds, but i'm sure that they took a few chunks outta the two of them.

[Steve Halter]

Sinisdar Toste, on 14 January 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

didn't they leave kiska and leoman dripping blood? maybe because they're not real bloodflies they can't lay eggs in the wounds, but i'm sure that they took a few chunks outta the two of them.

That was my guess. leoman called them bloodflies, but they were really just another nasty biting fly.
Or, it could have been that since they were part of a d'ivers they weren't laying eggs.

[Traveller]

Finished it now, thought it was very good overall - way better that NoK and RotCG imo.

Lots of comments here about 'unresolved' Stormrider issue... were they not revealed as being Tiste Liosan at the end?
Under the Ice they had regular, nondescript shell armour, and they were described as pale, 'resembling Tiste Andii. I thought for a bit that the Liosan events in shadow were related to the attack on the wall -
as following the Stormriders partial success, the Liosan in the Shadow realm were also described returning from battle. I know that was supposed to be with the 'whorl', but still, I thought they might have been linked.

Also, looking at the map - 3 circular, deep holes/craters, in a line across Korel, each containing a chest. Were these the original impact craters from the CG remains?

Good book though, I thought it read far more like an SE novel, and whereas during ICE's previous books I've been distracted by the writing style, I didn't whilst reading this.

Was good to see Leoman again - I wonder where Dunsparrow ended up?

This post has been edited by First Tiger: 16 January 2011 - 01:26 PM

[Abyss]

First Tiger, on 16 January 2011 - 01:19 PM, said:

Finished it now, thought it was very good overall - way better that NoK and RotCG imo.

Lots of comments here about 'unresolved' Stormrider issue... were they not revealed as being Tiste Liosan at the end?
Under the Ice they had regular, nondescript shell armour, and they were described as pale, 'resembling Tiste Andii....

NOK described them as essentially human, although considering most other elder Warrens have a native born Tiste race, a race of 'Tiste Omtose Phellack' isn't unthinkable. The Jaghut are OP aspected, but it's never been suggested they were native.

[Roldom]

the jaghut are native to wu, there constantly pointed out to be one of the 4 elder races that evolved on wu, where as the tiste are constantly said to be invaders

edit for clarification

This post has been edited by Roldom: 18 January 2011 - 12:03 AM

[Paran]

Giant with Leoman and Kiska - Fener? At the start of DoD, we have Heboric in "dreamtime" and he notices Fener, impossible large and unable to move along with the starry night sky.

As for ICE's "nice touches" I just don't feel we ever got past the skin of any character. With SE's characters, even small amounts of screen time hint at deep characters with histories, prejudices and motivations. With ICE's, they all seem paper thin. Kyle was a lot better, and Ussu and Boron were done well, but none of the characters lived up to their potential. Missed opportunities and potential for more.

Pertinent question, what colour skin and hair do the stormriders have?

[MTS]

Quote

Bodies lay among the rocks – slain Stormriders that she stepped right over. Their armour appeared to be a mixture of their sorcerous scaled ice over mundane materials such as shell, cold-forged copper, and exotic hides. They were fair, with pale hair. The characteristic features she saw among the corpses reminded her of the Tiste Andii.

This post has been edited by MTS: 18 January 2011 - 07:14 AM