[Tattersail_]

also can someone please answer. is Greymane dead? i got the initial impression that he is but it did say some hands or arms grabbed hold of him or something similar, it's been a few weeks since i read it so just want a clarification

[T'renn]

Well, when boats cross the Ring there seems to be a huge armoured figure at the bottom. A guardian against the Return of the Lady, as the superstitious claim.
You know who I think it is.

[Sindriss]

Yeah, that is definetely Greymane, waiting at the bottom of the sea. Probably to be revived by Mael at some point when he needs a badass with an even more badass sword.

Anyway, for some reason the first half of the book seemed better and more intriguing than the latter. ICE just didn't hit the climax as I thought he would, especially with such a good cast of characters. And I have to concur with Gothos, it is just beginning to get annoying that chapters can end on the word Assail, without any revelations or information regarding the place comes out. Its like, dum dum dum, ASSAIL ! Dramatic suspense built, next chapter.

Also, some things were just weird. How on earth is it possible to deny use of warrens in an entire continent. Was that what was fueled by the sacrifices on the wall? It seemed that you could use warrens, but then the Lady would come after you. Seems a bit too omnipotent, if that trick was possible it should be used more? Maybe there is some part of that puzzle that I didn't get on the first read.

However, I thought that the cracking of the wall and Greymane was very good. Especially, when he get his hands stuck in the stone, and he starts laughing about the title bestowed on him, stonewielder. Subsequently, cursing the gods seem valid.

Also, seems to be an easy way out to not include some monologue or chapters on the stormriders. They are an essential part of the history in the region and of the events happening now. Yet, their motives are so clouded, did they just want those parts of the CG? It is mused in some part of the book that they want to go to their holy places or something.

[Sindriss]

Also, the murders happening in the city that the assessor is investigating - Was that the bodies of the prisoners that the mage was using to get warren use or ?

[Abyss]

Sindriss, on 21 December 2010 - 02:08 PM, said:

Yeah, that is definetely Greymane, waiting at the bottom of the sea. Probably to be revived by Mael at some point when he needs a badass with an even more badass sword.

Yep. Tho i wonder if he's actually dead and that's a crypt, as opposed to a storage unit.
(and not that being dead would actually be a barrier to him returning eventually...)

Quote

... it is just beginning to get annoying that chapters can end on the word Assail, without any revelations or information regarding the place comes out. Its like, dum dum dum, ASSAIL ! Dramatic suspense built, next chapter.

Heh. I hope ICE can deliver because he, and SE, are really working hard to build our expectations about Assail.

Quote

Also, some things were just weird. How on earth is it possible to deny use of warrens in an entire continent. Was that what was fueled by the sacrifices on the wall? It seemed that you could use warrens, but then the Lady would come after you. Seems a bit too omnipotent, if that trick was possible it should be used more? Maybe there is some part of that puzzle that I didn't get on the first read.

Don't forget that the Lady/CG had a couple of millenia to secure her hold on the continent. If an entire continent of people believe, many to the point of suicidal fanaticism, that their god can prevent the warrens from operating, then that's how it will be. Plus Ladychains was apprently powerful enough to sense warren use and strike at the user - notice that most mages weren't willing to test that theory.

Sindriss, on 21 December 2010 - 02:25 PM, said:

Also, the murders happening in the city that the assessor is investigating - Was that the bodies of the prisoners that the mage was using to get warren use or ?

I thought that was cultists in Bakune's city, and Ussu was killing prisoner victims for Yeull in a totally different city? Or am i confused and you're right...? Anyone?

[polishgenius]

Abyss, on 21 December 2010 - 02:38 PM, said:

I thought that was cultists in Bakune's city, and Ussu was killing prisoner victims for Yeull in a totally different city? Or am i confused and you're right...? Anyone?

I'mm pretty sure you're right and the thing Bakune was chasing down was an early clue to the nature of the Lady and her protection...

[Mentalist]

Yeah, Bakune was chasing down deaths in Banith, and Ussu was torturing people in Paliss.

also, re: warrens. CG did it in MoI, by poisoning them all with Chaos.... maybe the Lady just superimposed her warren on the entire continent, and, given that no other Ascendants ever got worshipped there, they wouldn't have the power to spread their warren there, not against the Lady who was constantly being re-fueled by blood sacrifices.

[Abyss]

we've seen more than once that the warrens are hardly an all purpose easy to access power source. CG poisoning aside, Corlo had a hard time with them on Leth in MT. The Awl had dead zones in RG. Given milenia to work with and a gullible population ready to die for it, why shouldn't the Lady be able to do what she did?

Which, now that i think about it, may also explain the Stormriders' problem bypassing the Wall. Her influence covered the entire continent. It was only a physical break in the Wall combined with multiple assaults on her worshippers that weakened him/her/it enough for the rest to happen.

[Greyfrog32]

polishgenius, on 21 December 2010 - 02:41 PM, said:

Abyss, on 21 December 2010 - 02:38 PM, said:

I thought that was cultists in Bakune's city, and Ussu was killing prisoner victims for Yeull in a totally different city? Or am i confused and you're right...? Anyone?

I'mm pretty sure you're right and the thing Bakune was chasing down was an early clue to the nature of the Lady and her protection...

im pretty sure that the deaths in banith were caused by karien el. i thought it was implied when bakune finds out what karien el was doing behind his back, if i remember correctly.

[amphibian]

The mortalsword, on 21 December 2010 - 07:23 PM, said:

im pretty sure that the deaths in banith were caused by karien el. i thought it was implied when bakune finds out what karien el was doing behind his back, if i remember correctly.

As Unuth was manipulating sacrifices to reach the Lady and gain divinations, so were the Temple inhabitants. Bakune knew that the Temple was causing the dead bodies, but did not find out why until the very end, when the sheer amount of people sacrificed brought the Lady to inhabit a child and be really, really creepy.

[Ulrik]

I remebered what irritated me. Trans-realm terms. When Ivanr think about "crusaders", it sucks. I really didnt see many crosses there... Its IMO term so hugely connected to exact part of history that fantasy authors should avoid it (if they are not Glen Cook:))

[Greyfrog32]

amphibian, on 21 December 2010 - 08:34 PM, said:

The mortalsword, on 21 December 2010 - 07:23 PM, said:

im pretty sure that the deaths in banith were caused by karien el. i thought it was implied when bakune finds out what karien el was doing behind his back, if i remember correctly.

As Unuth was manipulating sacrifices to reach the Lady and gain divinations, so were the Temple inhabitants. Bakune knew that the Temple was causing the dead bodies, but did not find out why until the very end, when the sheer amount of people sacrificed brought the Lady to inhabit a child and be really, really creepy.

Oh cool thanks amphibian for clearing that up

[aginor]

Ulrik, on 22 December 2010 - 12:23 AM, said:

I remebered what irritated me. Trans-realm terms. When Ivanr think about "crusaders", it sucks. I really didnt see many crosses there... Its IMO term so hugely connected to exact part of history that fantasy authors should avoid it (if they are not Glen Cook:))

Trans-realm terms is a good way of putting it. That's my pet peeve with newer fantasy authors. Not only do the terms cross realms but certain idioms and expletives. My reason for reading fantasy to be immersed in another realm with it's own distinct history, "crusades", prejudices, and morality. That's thorough world building in my opinion. I can imagine the difficulty of any author who must first travel to their world then give their characters unique voices. I appreciate the effort. This is where SE distinguishes himself ( having a archaeology background helps no doubt ). When SE walks you through his realms, you come across artifacts that intrigue you. You ask yourself,"How did that get here?". "What is/was this place?"

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 21 December 2010 - 08:34 PM, said:

... As Unuth was manipulating sacrifices to reach the Lady and gain divinations, ...

Not exactly - Ussu was initially using his sacrifices as a way to work around the Lady and acess the divination aspect of Mokra. He learns early in the book that she was basically letting him do it, but reaching her was never his purpose.

aginor, on 22 December 2010 - 02:59 AM, said:

Ulrik, on 22 December 2010 - 12:23 AM, said:

I remebered what irritated me. Trans-realm terms. When Ivanr think about "crusaders", it sucks. ...

Trans-realm terms is a good way of putting it. That's my pet peeve with newer fantasy authors. Not only do the terms cross realms but certain idioms and expletives. ...

He never calls it 'the Crusades', but essentially a religious crusade is exactly what Ivanr's army is and the term fits.
iirc back in GotM SE used the term 'jihad' to refer to Imass wars against the Jaghuts.

[Ulrik]

Abyss, on 22 December 2010 - 02:53 PM, said:

amphibian, on 21 December 2010 - 08:34 PM, said:

... As Unuth was manipulating sacrifices to reach the Lady and gain divinations, ...

Not exactly - Ussu was initially using his sacrifices as a way to work around the Lady and acess the divination aspect of Mokra. He learns early in the book that she was basically letting him do it, but reaching her was never his purpose.

aginor, on 22 December 2010 - 02:59 AM, said:

Ulrik, on 22 December 2010 - 12:23 AM, said:

I remebered what irritated me. Trans-realm terms. When Ivanr think about "crusaders", it sucks. ...

Trans-realm terms is a good way of putting it.  That's my pet peeve with newer fantasy authors.  Not only do the terms cross realms but certain idioms and expletives.  ...

He never calls it 'the Crusades', but essentially a religious crusade is exactly what Ivanr's army is and the term fits.
iirc back in GotM SE used the term 'jihad' to refer to Imass wars against the Jaghuts.

And I still see it as mistake. Crusade (or jihad) is very specially chained to one meaning. Core of the word defines its meaning. 

[Abyss]

Ulrik, on 22 December 2010 - 03:03 PM, said:

And I still see it as mistake. Crusade (or jihad) is very specially chained to one meaning. Core of the word defines its meaning.

I see your point that it throws you out of the story world, but i think that's a narrow way of looking at things. Not to be overly pedantic, but there were at least ten 'Crusades' in the real world over more or less 3-400 years, so it's not like any one specific event holds a monopoly on the word. The core of the word, either word, is essentially 'religious war', which was applicable.

One could otherwise apply your reasoning to be critical of the crucifixion of the Aren legion or Coltaine in DG (tho arguably with Coltaine it was intended to) or the Jaghut use of 'Ice Ages'.

[Ulrik]

Now we can go to pure semantics:) Crusades mean "cross", very specific religious item - and crusades were always raised in rhetoric of christianity. Crucificxion was pre-christian. Well, in true, crucifixtion was reason for that christian symbol :-) But itself it doesnt bear exact religious essence. Crusade does.

And Jaghut Ice Ages, well, I always take that as joke, but in Wu realm it really was ICE Ages:) But whatever, its not so strongpoint to criticize for raising flamesade (its crusade of flamewars)

[Abyss]

i always though 'jihad' had more panache anyways.

But arguing etomology about words used in a fictional universe is sort of like arguing about how silly it is that the characters are speaking english.

[Ulrik]

But they are speaking trader´s tongue, arent they? ICE and SE is only translating it!

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Exactly. ICE decided that the best way to translate that Korelri word was crusade.