[LordofTheFallen]

OK, so i finished the book and i still don't really know what happened to redmask. He was obviously killed by the K'Chain Che"Malle towards the end, but then his body was identified as letherii. So either the barghast simply mis-identified the body and Redmask is legitimately dead or Redmask was in fact a letherii imposter who was pissed or something. So if this Redmask wasn't really the legendary Awl warrior, Who the hell was he?

[Defiance]

Redmask was a Letherii. That's the big secret surrounding him, the thing that the one elder held over his head. I'm sure some other people can explain it in more detail.

We do see evidence that he's Letherii in how he skins the faces of those he kills - this is something that we see Letherii doing early on in the book, in Drene (basically, iirc, they had Awl faces and tattoos pinned to their shields). There's some other evidence, but I can't recall it off the top of my head.

[Raecon Nom]

I think that redmask wasn't the legendary awl warrior at all.
He was just a Letherii pretending to be Redmask (knowing his history and that of the Awl and trained in the weapons). He was part of the letherii scheme to annihialate the Awl and take all their land.
He gave them an excuse to start a full-out war!

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think redmask was probably a letherii the whole time... a stolen child. remember the story of his sister? who was an awl that the letherii stole? well, im betting it was in retaliation for the kidnapping of the letherii who became redmask. there's also the elder in RG who knows about it all and who eventually gets killed by redmask cuz he doesn't want anyone to know he's letherii. thus the mask.

he was probably in love with his 'sister' and thats why he spoke these rash words that got him exiled, he wanted to unite the clans and save her. or something, more likely i'm just pissin in the wind with this last bit

[Defiance]

Raecon Nom, on 22 October 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:

I think that redmask wasn't the legendary awl warrior at all.
He was just a Letherii pretending to be Redmask (knowing his history and that of the Awl and trained in the weapons). He was part of the letherii scheme to annihialate the Awl and take all their land.
He gave them an excuse to start a full-out war!

There's no way Redmask was working for the Letherii. If he had been working for the Letherii, why the hell did he bother taking the time to train the Awl? By leaving them to their old ways, he could have ensured their annihilation. Hell, by doing nothing, he would have ensured that the Letherii obliterate the Awl. If he had been working for the Letherii, he wouldn't have chosen Bast Fulmar as a battle site - he would have just let the Awl use their old tactics on an open plain where the Letherii could annihilate them with sorcery.

I don't think Redmask's story is ever made 100% clear. What we do know, however, is that a) it was the original Redmask (thus the elder, and the elder's death) and Redmask was trying to lead the Awl to victory.

[Abyss]

Strictly based on RG...

I think he was the original Redmask, a Letherii who was taken in by the Awl, grew up with an unhealthy interest in his adoptive sister and eventually ran away for it. The old man remembering this and Redmask's reaction (killing him), plus the revelation at the end that he was Letherii, all support this.

I think he was found by the KC and used for an experiment in linking humans and K'Chain, 'upgraded' - hence his exceptional strength and speed despite the fact that he would have to be 'old' - then sent back to the human lands with the two K'Chain as his escorts and observers. Toc's comment on finding the mortal sword of the K'Chain Che'malle supports this.

[Tattersail_]

my 2 cents was that Redmask was never killed, I always thought after re read and after re read and all the way through was that the Redmask they uncovered was a fake. If you look at his death it was just unseemly, it didn't fit with the character. I think the real Redmask is still alive. I think he understood far to clearly that his army was going to be destroyed and that he would need to be seen as killed so he gave his mask to a loyalist or someone else and escaped some how. Far fetched I know, but I honestly believe him to still be alive. If this is the case he may show up in future books?

again this is my opinion, and reading everyone else's post I think i am changing my mind to go with the consensus, i just don't think his death fit into his character. he was awesome, a very good fighter its sad to see him go.

[Abyss]

Tattersail, on 25 October 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

my 2 cents was that Redmask was never killed...I think he understood far to clearly that his army was going to be destroyed and that he would need to be seen as killed so he gave his mask to a loyalist or someone else and escaped some how. ...

Would that fool a K'ell Hunter who's been following him around for a while?

The point is that the 'real' Redmask WAS Letherii. The fact that his corpse is revealed to be Letherii is confirmation that he was was real, not that he was a fake, even tho' Kilava or whoever it was that made the revelation thinks so.

[champ]

Tattersail, on 25 October 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

my 2 cents was that Redmask was never killed, I always thought after re read and after re read and all the way through was that the Redmask they uncovered was a fake. If you look at his death it was just unseemly, it didn't fit with the character. I think the real Redmask is still alive. I think he understood far to clearly that his army was going to be destroyed and that he would need to be seen as killed so he gave his mask to a loyalist or someone else and escaped some how. Far fetched I know, but I honestly believe him to still be alive. If this is the case he may show up in future books?

again this is my opinion, and reading everyone else's post I think i am changing my mind to go with the consensus, i just don't think his death fit into his character. he was awesome, a very good fighter its sad to see him go.

i've yet to get upto RG on my latest reread so cannot comment with absolute belief...

but when rereading last time, i just thought there was something odd about it all, the way his death was written and presented, cannot point my finger at why, just gut feeling!

is he dead? at the moment 50/50 for me!

hopefully i will see the light though when come to read it again!

[Tattersail_]

Abyss, on 25 October 2010 - 03:29 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 25 October 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

my 2 cents was that Redmask was never killed...I think he understood far to clearly that his army was going to be destroyed and that he would need to be seen as killed so he gave his mask to a loyalist or someone else and escaped some how. ...

Would that fool a K'ell Hunter who's been following him around for a while?

The point is that the 'real' Redmask WAS Letherii. The fact that his corpse is revealed to be Letherii is confirmation that he was was real, not that he was a fake, even tho' Kilava or whoever it was that made the revelation thinks so.

I would say that my "feeling" towards the whole situation made me think that it was this way, i've read it one way and thought about it another, and with how good SE is at changing things, or making you think different than other people. Is this the majority of peoples thoughts though, (that he is Redmask and he is dead)?

spoiler for much later book, only read if you have read all books

Spoiler

I also think that the Redmask character was set up to create and understanding of what the K'chain Che'malle are looking for, this would show that when they actually find someone to fill the role that that someone will be worthy strong and a great leader

This post has been edited by Tattersail: 25 October 2010 - 04:07 PM

[Tattersail_]

champooon, on 25 October 2010 - 03:36 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 25 October 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

my 2 cents was that Redmask was never killed, I always thought after re read and after re read and all the way through was that the Redmask they uncovered was a fake. If you look at his death it was just unseemly, it didn't fit with the character. I think the real Redmask is still alive. I think he understood far to clearly that his army was going to be destroyed and that he would need to be seen as killed so he gave his mask to a loyalist or someone else and escaped some how. Far fetched I know, but I honestly believe him to still be alive. If this is the case he may show up in future books?

again this is my opinion, and reading everyone else's post I think i am changing my mind to go with the consensus, i just don't think his death fit into his character. he was awesome, a very good fighter its sad to see him go.

i've yet to get upto RG on my latest reread so cannot comment with absolute belief...

but when rereading last time, i just thought there was something odd about it all, the way his death was written and presented, cannot point my finger at why, just gut feeling!

is he dead? at the moment 50/50 for me!

hopefully i will see the light though when come to read it again!

see this is what I am getting at, maybe I cannot put it down into words but it was an aura of "something's not right here", I cannot put my finger on it, but I think everyone is just accepting it for what it is when I think there is more to it.

[Abyss]

The point that by Kilava stating 'this body couldn't be Redmask because he's Letherii" she's actually confirming for the reader, who is in the know, that it IS Redmask because Redmask WAS Letherii.

By deceiving the characters, SE has proven a point for the readers, but it is a switch up and i can see how that leaves some scratching their thinkymeatz.

MODGOD GENERAL NOTE: WATCH THE SPOILERS PEOPLE. THIS IS THE RG FORUM.

[Tattersail_]

Abyss, on 25 October 2010 - 03:59 PM, said:

The point that by Kilava stating 'this body couldn't be Redmask because he's Letherii" she's actually confirming for the reader, who is in the know, that it IS Redmask because Redmask WAS Letherii.

By deceiving the characters, SE has proven a point for the readers, but it is a switch up and i can see how that leaves some scratching their thinkymeatz.

MODGOD GENERAL NOTE: WATCH THE SPOILERS PEOPLE. THIS IS THE RG FORUM.

edited accordingly

[Defiance]

Another hint of his Letherii origins:

He had thought himself rid of that fool and his cruel secrets, in that weighing look - like a father's regard on a wayward soon, as if nothing the child did could be good enough, could be Awl in the ways of the people they had been and would always be.

Few sentences later:

Is that not Awl enough? Am I not more Awl than any other among the Renfayar?

[Archeokat]

This is strange to read back on because I was under the assumption that Redmask in the books wasn't the real Redmask, and that by IDing him as Letharii, Kilava was simply confirming for the reader that he wasn't Awl and therefore an imposter. All of his comments about being 'more Awl' could stem from massive paranoia that everyone know's he's a fraud. The Elder's taking him aside and telling him he knows the truth said to me that the elder knew the original Redmask, was possibly his father or related in some way, and that he knew the current Redmask to be a fake. It sounded to me like the Letharii who was pretending to be RM was possibly an indebted in the past or a soldier from Drene who had deserted, ending up in the Wastelands, maybe possibly meeting the real RM and adopting the wepons. Or maybe taken in by the KcCm (let's think, we never see him actually fight the KcCm with those weapons of his, do we).

Another thing, it says at the end of the scene before he dies that he'd lost his whip. Maybe the KcCm didn't recognise him.. or they weren't bound to him anymore because of the weapons. Frantically trying to finish this series, my curiosity is killing me!!!

[tiam]

Abyss, on 25 October 2010 - 03:04 PM, said:

Strictly based on RG...

I think he was the original Redmask, a Letherii who was taken in by the Awl, grew up with an unhealthy interest in his adoptive sister and eventually ran away for it. The old man remembering this and Redmask's reaction (killing him), plus the revelation at the end that he was Letherii, all support this.

I think he was found by the KC and used for an experiment in linking humans and K'Chain, 'upgraded' - hence his exceptional strength and speed despite the fact that he would have to be 'old' - then sent back to the human lands with the two K'Chain as his escorts and observers. Toc's comment on finding the mortal sword of the K'Chain Che'malle supports this.

Honestly Ive never understood the Redmask plotline and ive read RG a few times. Anyway Im on my first reread in a while and this view by Abyss seems pretty much correct. Im going to try and get this down to answer any questions. It may take a while but its worth a read for anyones interested in the Redmask timeline (hopefully)

The main relevant quotes are Bivvats comments to Brohl Handar after Redmasks attacks on Drene (RG MMPB p.56 onwards) and Redmasks own POV (RG MMPB p.634). Also relevant is the opening passage of chapter three (RG MMPB p.62)

The first quote deals with how a letherii came to be Awl in every sense. Bivatt states that the Awl were in the habit of stealing Letherii children, and as a response, Letur Anict stole the clan chiefs daughter to extort the chiefs herds. It seems likely that the clan chief adopted one of these Letherii child as his own and that this Letherii child became Redmask. To get his now indebted daughter, the adopted sister of Redmask, back, the chief, Redmasks adopted father, agreed to give Letur Anict his herds. On the way to the exchange, overcome by grief or something like that the daughter/sister stabbed herself in the heart. Letur Anict refusing to give up on this opportunity attacked the tribes anyway in an attempt to take the herd. Anicts troops killed everyone except Redmask and possibly also the one Elder that Redmask kills because he knows Redmasks actual heritage.

The quote goes on to say that the skirmishes between the Awl and Letherii continued. A few years later the defeats started piling up against the Letherii and the name Redmask was heard, a new war chief. It seems likely that during this gap of a few years Redmask travelled near the KCCM nest as when he returns to fight the Letherii he has his mask and namesake.

There are two things that give us an indication of his activites during this time. Firstly, Bivatt tells of a legend of Redmask slaying a dragon (obviously a KCCM of some distinction), though discounts the myth as Redmask was nothing more than a child at this time. However it may have been at this time, or possibly from a young age before the slaying of his family, that Redmask mastered the use of the Cadaran whip and Rygtha. Atleast by the time he was turning ambushes against the Letherii a few years later when he became Redmask the warchief, he was using the legendary Awl weaponry, as Bivatt uses it to convince Brohl Handar it is the original Redmask.

The second point that may give information about those 'few years' is based on a passage opener.There is a clue to what happened. Bivatt comments to Brohl Handar that the last expedition into the Wildlands was 'decades ago' may appear as a chapter opener. Theres a passage on p.62 that details factor Breneda Anict journeying into the Wildlands and comes across the body of a Kell Hunter. The passage details a 'tentacle like' series of wounds aswell as deeper wounds 'invariably delivered to a region vital to locomotion' clearly signifying the use of the Cadaran Whip and the Rygtha axe that are used by Redmask and ancient Awl to combat the KCCM. Now there is no time frame for this though clearly the factor is related to the current factor as they both have the surname Anict. It may be a relative or an ancestor of the current factor. In any case it may be relevant to Redmask but may not be.

After he returns from this contact with the KCCM he returns to the Awl, wielding ancient Awl weapons and wearing a mask so no one can see his features.At this point I assume know-one, given his weapons and likely fierce hatred of the Letherii because of what happened with his adopted sister, doubts his origins. Bivatt makes it clear this is the first time the name Redmask was heard. At some point Redmask tries to unify the clans and spoke out against the Elders of the gathering of clans. He spoke out against them and when he would not retract these words he was banished and went into the wastelands between Kolanse and the Awldan.

At this point I assume the elders of the tribal gathering do not know he is Letherii. If they did surely Redmasks reputation as a legendary Awl warrior would be tainted as this fact could be spread through the tribes, stopping any support for Redmask rather than the awe and admiration that are held by the warriors on Redmasks return. It would also be easy for the Elders of the tribe to dismiss Redmasks efforts to unify the tribes as he was Letherii. It would certainly have been noted and remembered by a number of Awl rather than one solitary Elder though this is unclear.

It seems likely that the Elder that Redmask kills was another survivor from Letur Anicts initial attack. Redmask states on p.634 that the 'last of the Renfayar Elders,who knew yes,knew well my father and all his kin, and the children THEY CALLED THEIR OWN' (emphasis mine obviously) again suggesting that the chief adopted Letherii children.There is also an interesting section on the mentality of Redmask. Fuelled by the hatred of the Elder who looked down on him as he knew he was Letherii Redmasks POV (again p.634) reads

' A fathers regard on a wayward son, as if nothing that child could did could be good enough, could be Awl in the ways of the people as they had been and would always be'.

If anything this suggests a troubled relationship with his adopted father or possibly Redmask feeling vulnerable about his heritage.

Anyway the sum of this seems to be that Redmask was adopted by a clan chief of the Awl, and was likely a stolen child. His adopted sister was kidnapped by Letur Anict and killed herself on the way to an exchange for the herds of Redmasks adopted father. Letur Anict killed the rest of Redmasks clan apart from Redmask and possibly the last Renfayer Elder. It seems he then travelled and learnt the traditional weapons of the Awl the Cadarn Whip and the Rygtha axe, most likely in an effort to make himself a model Awl as a way to distance himself from his Letherii origins and possibly because he had daddy issues because he wasnt Awl enough. He returned to the tribes as a master of traditional Awl weaponry and started turning the war in the favour of the Awl. In an effort to unify the tribes, and fully take revenge for the fate of his sister and his adopted tribe, he spoke out of turn against the Elders of the gathered clans and in turn was banished. Upon his return he took over the last of the Awl, who viewed him as a legend, so musnt have known of his Letherii origin. The Renfayer Elder (presumably of Redmasks original adopted clan) held the truth of his origin over him forcing Redmask to kill him.

He was the original legendary Redmask and is definitely dead aswell. The big reveal at the end was that the secret the Renfayer elder held over him was his Letherii origins not that he wasnt the real Redmask.

Hope someone reads this and finds it helpful.

This post has been edited by tiam: 28 October 2011 - 11:25 AM