[Kalse]

Ampelas, on 05 October 2010 - 06:50 AM, said:

Rashan, on 05 October 2010 - 04:41 AM, said:

Ampelas, on 04 October 2010 - 08:53 PM, said:

Caught up, but a bit swamped at work - checking in quick, should have more time to play properly this evening.

Personally I think Necron is most likely to be cult - they have to eliminate EVERYONE who isn't in their faction. Much easier to achieve a goal like that if you can recruit along the way. Chaos are good candidates too, not sure what a possession would entail, but it could be something culty. We've seen competing cults before, that's a possibility too.

Silanah's death is just odd, but I would think mods would make modkills clear. I agree the scene does look like it was a vig, but there isn't a disclaimer about how true to the game the scenes will be, so I don't think we should be basing assumptions of scene info.

From the wording of the Eldar victory condition it sounds like there must be at least three of them. Are we going to get the type of xeno in the CF? It would be good to know if we have lynched one, since at that point we would have to start playing a lot more carefully.

I can only believe this is deliberately obtuse. How on earth does eliminating all life (as per the OP) mesh at all with attracting followers? When was the last time a cult had to kill everyone else?

When was the last time any non-town faction had to kill everyone else? My logic is this, although noone else on the thread is thinking the same way:

Town's objective is to eliminate everyone, since they have the numbers to do so. Scum normally just have to acheive majority, since they start off with much less people. Now in this game the Tyrranid win mechanic is basically a fancily worded way of saying they have to acheive majority. The Necros on the other hand have a town-like winning condition - eliminate all other factions. This would imply one of three things. That the necros started with a faction with a similar size and power to town, that the necros are a small group of incredibly powerful roles with lots of survival and kills, or that the necros have the ability to gain the voting block they need to eliminate all other factions. The last one would mean cult.

If there is stuff in the Warhammer cannon that would indicate otherwise let me know, I'm only looking at the win conditions here. Tyrannid win conditions indicate normallish scum, Eldar indicate a likely small and tough survival-focused faction, Chaos could be cult but the suggestions of FMs would most likely apply to them. Which leaves Necros as either as cult, or having a similar setup as town. If they did start as similar to town, then Tyrannid would be the best candidate for cult.

Why are we so sure that Silanah's death was caused by town? The wall'o'text rules say there are no clues in morning and evening scenes. Nothing is stated about day scenes, but I think making assumptions about behind the scenes actions based on the mods' creative license is not a good idea.

Read my second to most recent post before this one.

The Necrons are souless, world-destroying undead. They don't fit the bill for cult at all! Tyranids, otoh, have the Genestealer Cult. Cult. >.>

[Ampelas]

Kalse, on 05 October 2010 - 07:11 AM, said:

Ampelas, on 05 October 2010 - 06:50 AM, said:

Rashan, on 05 October 2010 - 04:41 AM, said:

Ampelas, on 04 October 2010 - 08:53 PM, said:

Caught up, but a bit swamped at work - checking in quick, should have more time to play properly this evening.

Personally I think Necron is most likely to be cult - they have to eliminate EVERYONE who isn't in their faction. Much easier to achieve a goal like that if you can recruit along the way. Chaos are good candidates too, not sure what a possession would entail, but it could be something culty. We've seen competing cults before, that's a possibility too.

Silanah's death is just odd, but I would think mods would make modkills clear. I agree the scene does look like it was a vig, but there isn't a disclaimer about how true to the game the scenes will be, so I don't think we should be basing assumptions of scene info.

From the wording of the Eldar victory condition it sounds like there must be at least three of them. Are we going to get the type of xeno in the CF? It would be good to know if we have lynched one, since at that point we would have to start playing a lot more carefully.

I can only believe this is deliberately obtuse. How on earth does eliminating all life (as per the OP) mesh at all with attracting followers? When was the last time a cult had to kill everyone else?

When was the last time any non-town faction had to kill everyone else? My logic is this, although noone else on the thread is thinking the same way:

Town's objective is to eliminate everyone, since they have the numbers to do so. Scum normally just have to acheive majority, since they start off with much less people. Now in this game the Tyrranid win mechanic is basically a fancily worded way of saying they have to acheive majority. The Necros on the other hand have a town-like winning condition - eliminate all other factions. This would imply one of three things. That the necros started with a faction with a similar size and power to town, that the necros are a small group of incredibly powerful roles with lots of survival and kills, or that the necros have the ability to gain the voting block they need to eliminate all other factions. The last one would mean cult.

If there is stuff in the Warhammer cannon that would indicate otherwise let me know, I'm only looking at the win conditions here. Tyrannid win conditions indicate normallish scum, Eldar indicate a likely small and tough survival-focused faction, Chaos could be cult but the suggestions of FMs would most likely apply to them. Which leaves Necros as either as cult, or having a similar setup as town. If they did start as similar to town, then Tyrannid would be the best candidate for cult.

Why are we so sure that Silanah's death was caused by town? The wall'o'text rules say there are no clues in morning and evening scenes. Nothing is stated about day scenes, but I think making assumptions about behind the scenes actions based on the mods' creative license is not a good idea.

Read my second to most recent post before this one.

The Necrons are souless, world-destroying undead. They don't fit the bill for cult at all! Tyranids, otoh, have the Genestealer Cult. Cult. >.>

My only knowledge of the universe is the one PC game I played a couple of years ago, so thanks. Does Genestealer cult imply actual recruiting type cult? I suppose I should wiki the different factions. Necros sound like zombies, which always makes me think of cult.

If Tyrannid is the cult, I think Bargy's numbers are way off, I'm not comfortable with the way he seems to be symping the Necrons. Unless they are fantastically strong, the Necrons would have to have numbers comparable to town in order to achieve the same conditions as them. So maybe something like 6 marine, 6 necron and 6 in the other three factions?

[Tapper]

I'm awake. I'm also terrorizing the porcelain and not in a good way, courtesy of yesterday's chinese take away, so I'll only be around when feeling slightly better.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 05 October 2010 - 07:22 AM

[Kalse]

The Genestealer's are fairly 'traditional' cult, yes. Flavour has them implanting humans with modified genes or some such, which eventually leads to the humans reproducing to create hybrid human-genestealer children...but same principle.

I mean, they have to 'create a beacon to the attract teh Hive Fleet to Olympia 7.'. Which doesn't sound incredibly cult-like. But the Tyranid methods of conquering planets (by seeding it, then producing more and more Tyranids) indicates growth of forces. This can only really be simulated in the game by Cult mechanics. The majority clause makes them either survivalist (and really, that would make three pure survivalist factions, and two half-survivalist factions in the form of Chaos and the Eldar).

The Necrons have no history of being cult-like. They just destroy everything to harvest souls for the C'tan.

Chaos forces have Possession, which involves a demon taking control, or at least becoming symbiotic with a host. So that could be FM-style, in the sense that it involves taking over someone else.

The Eldar...they are elitist, separate and don't have any history of cultism. I don't quite get the kill clause. It may just be mechanic variety on Ment's part, but the Eldar aren't really a race I've looked much into. Too much like Elves, lol.

So I think that kind of distribution both makes sense and fits with lore.

Necrons + Humans = wipe everything out.

Eldar = Survive, or get killed by lynches.

Tyranids = multiply to outnumber the rest, via 'recruitment'.

Chaos...possess enough players to make their position tenable. FM(s). Could also be a competing cult due to their cult-like nature, as Chaos Space Marines and Heretics/Chaos-worshipers do exist.

[Kalse]

As for numbers, I'm not comfortable assuming anything, or playing with figures. All we know is that town/humans are 90% chance going to have a majority to start, or at least the largest starting number.

The Necrons can probably get away with less, as their players will probably have some form of protection to simulate their 'chance' of pulling themselves back together in-lore.

[Tulas Shorn]

Olar Ethil, on 04 October 2010 - 07:00 PM, said:

Dave Chapelle is an american comic of the african american persuasion. He told a joke in which he referenced a sunny delight commercial (an orange juice type drink) and said that the black kid in the commercial's face lit up when the white child came to the "purple drank" option, while the others wanted the sunny D option.

Also, its obvious we are all on the same team, and that you are not on our team, that means you are not a town player, meaning you are in a seperate faction, so must in fact be a proser.

Try,try and try again.

GRAPE Drink..... purple, water, sugar

[D'riss]

Not having any knowledge of the books (although i played a space crusade game once twenty years ago, it was awesome), a lot of this discussion is going over my head. I agree with the consensus that this isnt a town vs scum game, as ment said it's a faction game. The major difference to a normal faction game being that you can not claim to be in any faction other than town which is an amusing twist on the faction mechanic. Also no town players can communicate off thread, so although town players might know of a squad leader or other squad members, its impossible for us to coordinate a solid gameplan without telling every xeno our ideas.

Trying to figure out which faction has which roles is one of our staple tactics in these types of games so I dont see anything overly suspicious in that. It is when people are too certain though that alarm bells start ringing. invariably a xeno will give information away and even though a knowledge of the books or lore may give you some degree of insight nothing is really certain in a game of mafia so seeing players defend their 'guesses' strikes me as odd.

@rashan - i can see where you are coming from regarding osseric outing 'town' by pointing fingers at the possible vigger, but it is still not certain that it was town who performed the kill and any day 1 vig of two hours is worth a mentioning, even possible suspects. Regardless of the faction involved a trigger happy day vigger is dangerous to all of us and considering they already took out one town member I would prefer to know and remove them in case they have more abilities. Going by the discussion involved it looks like the necros are killing machines. If a small faction requires the majority then its highly likely that one of their number is a day killer, not just a day vigger.

Back in a bit.

[Meanas]

Galayn Lord, on 05 October 2010 - 06:20 AM, said:

Meanas got my attention as I was reading up. Who votes for someone on the suspicion they are a Jester?

On the suspicion that they are a scum trying to look like a jester.

In any case, going with Warhammer 40k lore, the only way Necrons make sense is if they have to kill everyone else. And everything. And the space around them. They're these slow, nearly immortal robots advancing at you and ripping stuff apart. They're probably very, very powerful here. Also, I don't know if they wouldn't be forbidden from talking or something like that - they're not exactly the subtle, or talkative type.

Now, with Eldar and Harlequinns and the Webway and such... Nah, Silanah was executed by Imperials.

[Tulas Shorn]

Korvalain, on 04 October 2010 - 08:54 PM, said:

:: narrows eyes at barghast ::

to much use of the word our... i think ur a xeno....

haha... and you are obviously NOT xeno
or you wouldn't have pointed that out.

[Tulas Shorn]

Kalse, on 04 October 2010 - 08:55 PM, said:

OK, I'm now around. First off, I see there's been a kill already? Certainly sounded like a Commissar taking care of an unruly unit - though how the hell a Commissar would survive shooting a Space Marine, I don't know, lol. That being said, the Ordo Malleus report says 'I sent in...' - 'I'. That means the Vindicare Assassin who is making the observations of this planet. So he didn't kill the player, just retrieved the body.

Also, the Eldar as Jesters thing is a bit of a problem, but I don't think we should worry about it too much on day one. Unless they only have a couple of members, it should be hard to consistently lynch them, while none of them get killed via actions.

Chaos is going to be quite hard to stomp out. They win at faction size draw, or when they have made five recruits. WCS is a day and night recruit ability, in which case it's day 3 victory for them. Note. Performed possessions. That means it doesn't matter if their recruits die. :S Potentially therefore they only recruit on day OR night - but given we've already had a day kill, this feels like it could be a very fast game.

Tyranids have an interesting win condition. It implies recruitment (50% +1) - that could be hard to achieve if it's just survival. Though Tyranids are tough bastards, they could have significant starting numbers or protections.

Necrons have basically the same objective as the Imperium. Elimination. How they go about that, of course, could be quite different, but generally speaking the Necrons are a race of pure destruction, so I doubt they have much in the way of recruiting or other abilities. Lots of kills and/or BP's though (as they are undead and can rebuild themselves when destroyed).

Based on this, the top threats to me are the Eldar, because we can't just lynch them (it seems), and the Chaos. Both of them have dual achievable conditions, which is going to make them hard to stamp out. Humans are feeling really outmatched, I think. XD


EDIT: To try and add line breaks...

nice little round up.... tah

[Kalse]

D, on 05 October 2010 - 07:47 AM, said:

Not having any knowledge of the books (although i played a space crusade game once twenty years ago, it was awesome), a lot of this discussion is going over my head. I agree with the consensus that this isnt a town vs scum game, as ment said it's a faction game. The major difference to a normal faction game being that you can not claim to be in any faction other than town which is an amusing twist on the faction mechanic. Also no town players can communicate off thread, so although town players might know of a squad leader or other squad members, its impossible for us to coordinate a solid gameplan without telling every xeno our ideas.

Trying to figure out which faction has which roles is one of our staple tactics in these types of games so I dont see anything overly suspicious in that. It is when people are too certain though that alarm bells start ringing. invariably a xeno will give information away and even though a knowledge of the books or lore may give you some degree of insight nothing is really certain in a game of mafia so seeing players defend their 'guesses' strikes me as odd.

@rashan - i can see where you are coming from regarding osseric outing 'town' by pointing fingers at the possible vigger, but it is still not certain that it was town who performed the kill and any day 1 vig of two hours is worth a mentioning, even possible suspects. Regardless of the faction involved a trigger happy day vigger is dangerous to all of us and considering they already took out one town member I would prefer to know and remove them in case they have more abilities. Going by the discussion involved it looks like the necros are killing machines. If a small faction requires the majority then its highly likely that one of their number is a day killer, not just a day vigger.

Back in a bit.

Who's been defending their guesses?

I also agree it's going to be hard to co-ordinate action for town, but then town always has to deal with that problem. Very rare for more than one or two town pairs to have off-thread comms, and they can't do much anyway.

I agree that certainty is a luxury we can't afford. We have to play it by ear, and I hope that after this we can get down to playing a bit more than distribution spec. If we have to revise our thoughts, we'll have to deal with that as info comes in. Not much else we can do. Hopefully we get xeno-type CF's for a while, if those 'conditions' are met...


@Tulas - keep reading...the most likely setup is on this page...

[Tulas Shorn]

Fuck ...here is me getting mixed up.

xeno = non human.... fuck im a chop.



edit - just to elaborate...ive been thinking the whole morning while catching up that xeno = human for some crazy reason.
fuck i was confused...

This post has been edited by Tulas Shorn: 05 October 2010 - 08:12 AM

[Tulas Shorn]

ok....all up to date.

[Kalse]

Excellent...any thoughts? XD

I'm nearly out for a few hours anyway. At this stage, any lynch will do, barring some slip or other, I guess.

[Meanas]

I've been thinking that some of the lurkers are Necrons - would be kinda canon. But what do I know.

[Kalse]

That would be implausible as a game mechanic. O.o

Should be easy to identify if so, however. XD

[Meanas]

I guess that would be one of the 'bendings' of the setting to fit the game, aye.

Necrons trying to pose as regular citizens would look kind of funny, though. 'We are not the doom cyborgs you're looking for.'

[Karatallid]

OK back for a bit but likely to be sporadic in posting at the best.

Galayn Lord, on 05 October 2010 - 06:20 AM, said:

Sorry, at work and shit comes up I have to deal with. Managed to catch up now.

Have to say that the Vig is pretty disappointing play. Even if its some sort of forced Day 1 Vig, using it 2 hours into the day is silly stuff.

Lots of other stuff has happened so far as well, a pleasant surprise. Meanas got my attention as I was reading up. Who votes for someone on the suspicion they are a Jester? And then when asked about it decides not to say anything. Normally I'd call that pretty weird, but in this game I'm rather wary of voting someone off. If there are 3 Eldar its only 2 unlucky lynches for us and they win. And Meanas strikes me as a likely Eldar candidate. As the person who he was voting for (was is Olar?). That would presume they know each other of course so its a bit tentative there.

Other thing I like is what Rashan just brought up. I completely missed it on first read of the post from Osseric but I find it strange that someone wants to out people as Town.
Yes there was a Vig and it wasn't a great Vig but it came from the Town so why would you want to try and hunt down who did it? Outing people as Town is just going to put a huge target on their backs during the Night and is completely counter productive.

Be interested to hear from Osseric and Liosan there. Luckily we got oodles of time with the 36 hour days.

When i was looking through just now this post stood out to me slightly inc it does seem to be a lot of pointing out very obvious things and simply shit stirring, so right now if i had to peg anyone as Xeno, i would go for GL.

remove vote
vote Galayn Lord

[Tulas Shorn]

Kalse, on 05 October 2010 - 09:32 AM, said:

Excellent...any thoughts? XD

I'm nearly out for a few hours anyway. At this stage, any lynch will do, barring some slip or other, I guess.

Fuck at the moment im not sure what the hell we should do.
Im thinking going to night might even be an option as we already have one guy dead for next to nothing in return.

Lots of people are still trying to get "into" this one and figure everything out.

But at the same time lynching is also a source of info...but where to start?
We have people that could be looking to get lynched and thats yet another thing thats going to do our head in.
I think its a fair statement that the necro's and town will be trying to work together as much as it is possible that they can, as it seems for the time being our goals are the same as the necro's.

Im really not sure about the rest of the teams and how we should handle them.
The greatest threat right now would be the Jester type team and the cult is always something that needs to get taken out ASAP.

But finding any of these guys is going to be hit and miss on day one.

[Kalse]

Eh, on the one hand that post reads like a plot summary. On the other, it does have his take on some stuff and some input. Could be worth pursuing as time goes on.

@Meanas - yeah, I find that with some of the thematic games. Hand-waved, I guess, because otherwise themes wouldn't work! The official line, I believe was in the opening flavour text: "Strong interference, likely caused by an activation of an artefact under the city’s foundations, makes it difficult to identify friend from foe, and with the mass panic among the locals..."



I'm out now, so will see you all in quite a while. We have, if I'm not mistaken, just over 12 hours left. About 14, actually.