[Sinisdar Toste]

worrywort, on 24 October 2011 - 10:05 PM, said:

I guess one thing you could say is that occasionally SE will have two mighty forces face off too soon, and by too soon I mean before you get a good handle on what made the newly-introduced force so awesome. He does a pretty great job of showing-not-telling with all the contemporary action, but sometimes with the ancient characters who come back he tells-without-showing and then it smacks into a superior of the modern world. This happens with the Deragoth, Dejim Nebrahl, The Pack, the Tarthenol gods on Lether, and probably a few creatures/beings I'm missing.

It's not the biggest thing in the world, cuz we can logically surmise what's going on. But I do think the books could have included a few more instances like the one in Reaper's Gale, where we get a one-off POV showing a human village being utterly wrecked by KCCM. And getting Dejim's POV did help lay him out pretty well in some regard, but we should have seen him feed a few times (I think we only hear about the caravan as an off-screen event? Don't quite remember).

this is basically it. dejim nehbrahl was the worst offender. all he thought about was how great he was, how he would do this and enslave that, then, nope!

[Abberon]

tiam, on 24 October 2011 - 09:04 PM, said:

As Sinisdar above has stated you are confusing two events. Loric is musing that it was because of the Deragoth the KKCM, not the Imass, were not able to fully colonise 7cities. The ghosts who drove off the 7 Holy Protectors are witnessed by Kalam, and here he meets the ghost of Tanno who is the Seneschal of Yghatan, or whatever its ancient name is in this instance.

Yes that's right. Even so, do those ghosts that Kalam witnesses not talk about finally driving off the seven protectors?

tiam, on 24 October 2011 - 09:04 PM, said:

That they ran into the most powerful Tobakai warrior that weve seen so far doesnt mean theyre weak at all. Ofcourse if you were disappointed that your opinion but the Deragoth are still a force to be reckoned with as are the HOS, yet Rake put them down easier than Karsa put the Deragoth down

If the Deragoth were able to keep the KCCM (sky keeps and all) out of 7C, and if they gave pause to the Imass, I would have thought they'd be able to resist a single Toblakai, powerful though he may be. I was pretty excited about where SE was going with the Deragoth I guess, and they just got pimp slapped.

As for the Shadow Puppies, I always saw them as more of a watered-down version of the Deragoth.

[tiam]

Abberon, on 25 October 2011 - 04:54 PM, said:

tiam, on 24 October 2011 - 09:04 PM, said:

As Sinisdar above has stated you are confusing two events. Loric is musing that it was because of the Deragoth the KKCM, not the Imass, were not able to fully colonise 7cities. The ghosts who drove off the 7 Holy Protectors are witnessed by Kalam, and here he meets the ghost of Tanno who is the Seneschal of Yghatan, or whatever its ancient name is in this instance.

Yes that's right. Even so, do those ghosts that Kalam witnesses not talk about finally driving off the seven protectors?

tiam, on 24 October 2011 - 09:04 PM, said:

That they ran into the most powerful Tobakai warrior that weve seen so far doesnt mean theyre weak at all. Ofcourse if you were disappointed that your opinion but the Deragoth are still a force to be reckoned with as are the HOS, yet Rake put them down easier than Karsa put the Deragoth down

If the Deragoth were able to keep the KCCM (sky keeps and all) out of 7C, and if they gave pause to the Imass, I would have thought they'd be able to resist a single Toblakai, powerful though he may be. I was pretty excited about where SE was going with the Deragoth I guess, and they just got pimp slapped.

As for the Shadow Puppies, I always saw them as more of a watered-down version of the Deragoth.

Yes they do talk about driving them off but I think the actually phrase is banished, as in to another realm like the one in the Nascent before the flood that we didnt see. I dont think they physically drove them off the land as it seems clear they didnt kill them so banishment is more likely.

The Deragoth were able to stop 7C becoming a KCCM colony, not the Imass which was later on. Im unsure where your getting this Imass idea from, the Imass original First Empire was in 7c the Deragoth stopped nothing either because they werent there for whatever reason or a bargain was struck, we simply dont know. They may have simply lived together in a sort of peaceful coexistence of predators like in the Refugium. I assume there was more than the 7 remaining Deragoth to stop a full scale KCCm invsion but that they were able at all is impressive. That a borderline Ascendent power put 2 down while almost having his leg bitten off isnt too surprising.

As for the HOS yes I suppose they are diluted/shadows of the Deragoth yet they are still incredibly formidable yet were easily dispatched by an ascendent.

RE: Dejihm Nebrahl- Yes it would have been nice to see a bit from him. Though he doesnt go down as easily as people think and his engagement with Masan Gilani was fuelled by blind hunger rather than cunning which seemed his forte. The potential within Dejihm Nebrahl was what made him believe he was omnipotent. The fact that he was an attempt at creating an EG is important. We have no idea how Divers expand their forms. Based on DG it seems possibly on consuming other Soletakan such as Gryllen and possibly Ryllandaras or maybe through age. DN was different in that the more blood he consumed the more power he gained. He even cmments on making an 8th version of himself after he considered attacking a caravan before Iskaral Pust intervened. Thus it was the potential within DN that made him such a potent entity.

Put him in a city like D'stan and within a week he might have over a hundred versions of himself,enough to rival any power.

This post has been edited by tiam: 25 October 2011 - 06:28 PM

[Abberon]

tiam, on 25 October 2011 - 06:22 PM, said:

The Deragoth were able to stop 7C becoming a KCCM colony

Considering what we later see of the KCCM, this would suggest the Deragoth are SCARY powerful. We know how much of an effort it was for Silchas Ruin and Scabandari to bring down the KCCM. That the Deragoth could keep them away suggests something pretty badass.

tiam, on 25 October 2011 - 06:22 PM, said:

Im unsure where your getting this Imass idea from

The way I saw it was that the Deragoth gave the T'lan Imass pause for awhile when they were wiping out Dessim's Empire. That's pretty impressive considering how unstoppable they seem to be in genocide-mode.

tiam, on 25 October 2011 - 06:22 PM, said:

I assume there was more than the 7 remaining Deragoth to stop a full scale KCCm invsion but that they were able at all is impressive.

I never really thought there was anything to suggest there were more than 7.

tiam, on 25 October 2011 - 06:22 PM, said:

As for the HOS yes I suppose they are diluted/shadows of the Deragoth yet they are still incredibly formidable yet were easily dispatched by an ascendent.

I just kind of have to 'go with it' sometimes in this series. The HoS ripped apart a Malazan company in QT all by themselves in GotM and basically rip apart anything they come across (other than Rake). The Deragoth are, apparently, a much bigger and stronger version, yet are torn to shreads by a single Toblakai who, not long before, was subdued by the Ashok regiment in HoC. Later, Paran releases remaining Deragoth on Poliel (an Ascendant) and she shits her pants. It's just hard to follow I guess but ultimately it's not relevant to this thread really .

[worry]

I never got the impression that the seven were the only seven. In fact it seems they were explicitly described as the last of their kind, and it's implicit that they were a fairly thriving species some time in the past (which I think lines up with the time the KCCM might have tried making inroads, the domestication of the Eres, etc.).

Also, the two Deragoth that Karsa takes out are the ones who have already merged (or whatever) with the Shadow Hounds. It's still entirely up for grabs what effect this has on either creature.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 25 October 2011 - 10:39 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

Abberon, on 25 October 2011 - 08:02 PM, said:

tiam, on 25 October 2011 - 06:22 PM, said:

Im unsure where your getting this Imass idea from

The way I saw it was that the Deragoth gave the T'lan Imass pause for awhile when they were wiping out Dessim's Empire. That's pretty impressive considering how unstoppable they seem to be in genocide-mode.

but that doesn't really answer the question. where do the deragoth and the t'lan imass run into each other? as far as we know, they don't. onrack doesn't know about them. and since he's telling trull that they never encountered the HoS while wiping out the first empire, i assume they didn't see the deragoth either, otherwise he might have said something like "the Hounds of Shadow didn't make an appearance, but their badass grandaddies did."

[Abberon]

Minhasing Bheget, on 25 October 2011 - 10:50 PM, said:

but that doesn't really answer the question. where do the deragoth and the t'lan imass run into each other? as far as we know, they don't.

Well we know that Dessimbelackis made a pact with/veered into the Deragoth. The Seven Cities are named after the Deragoth. The T'lan Imass then came to wipe out Dessimbelackis' Empire. Kalam witnesses an old Raraku memory where the T'lan Imass mention finally driving off/banishing the Empire's 'protectors', and I think given the above it's pretty reasonable to assume that it was the Deragoth.

worrywort, on 25 October 2011 - 10:37 PM, said:

I never got the impression that the seven were the only seven. In fact it seems they were explicitly described as the last of their kind, and it's implicit that they were a fairly thriving species some time in the past (which I think lines up with the time the KCCM might have tried making inroads, the domestication of the Eres, etc.).

I never really got the impression that there was more than seven. The ones we do see are apparently older than the Elder Gods, and that, to me at least, suggests they're a little more than the remnants of a once-thriving race of big puppies. I always saw them as a primal, Ascendant-like, force of nature and destruction. That's just me though.

This post has been edited by Abberon: 26 October 2011 - 02:52 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Abberon, on 26 October 2011 - 02:48 PM, said:

worrywort, on 25 October 2011 - 10:37 PM, said:

I never got the impression that the seven were the only seven. In fact it seems they were explicitly described as the last of their kind, and it's implicit that they were a fairly thriving species some time in the past (which I think lines up with the time the KCCM might have tried making inroads, the domestication of the Eres, etc.).

I never really got the impression that there was more than seven. The ones we do see are apparently older than the Elder Gods, and that, to me at least, suggests they're a little more than the remnants of a once-thriving race of big puppies. I always saw them as a primal, Ascendant-like, force of nature and destruction. That's just me though.

I'm pretty sure that it was specifically stated that Dessimbelackis made a pact with the last of the Deragoth which does imply there were more than seven. Can't remember were,however. Perhaps Dejim's thoughts in TBH.

[tiam]

Abberon, on 26 October 2011 - 02:48 PM, said:

Minhasing Bheget, on 25 October 2011 - 10:50 PM, said:

but that doesn't really answer the question. where do the deragoth and the t'lan imass run into each other? as far as we know, they don't.

Well we know that Dessimbelackis made a pact with/veered into the Deragoth. The Seven Cities are named after the Deragoth. The T'lan Imass then came to wipe out Dessimbelackis' Empire. Kalam witnesses an old Raraku memory where the T'lan Imass mention finally driving off/banishing the Empire's 'protectors', and I think given the above it's pretty reasonable to assume that it was the Deragoth.

worrywort, on 25 October 2011 - 10:37 PM, said:

I never got the impression that the seven were the only seven. In fact it seems they were explicitly described as the last of their kind, and it's implicit that they were a fairly thriving species some time in the past (which I think lines up with the time the KCCM might have tried making inroads, the domestication of the Eres, etc.).

I never really got the impression that there was more than seven. The ones we do see are apparently older than the Elder Gods, and that, to me at least, suggests they're a little more than the remnants of a once-thriving race of big puppies. I always saw them as a primal, Ascendant-like, force of nature and destruction. That's just me though.

Your confusing events again. The vision that Kalam has is off a differing empire at war with Dessimbelackis. We have no idea what empire in the same way we know very little about the HFE. However they are not Imass, undead or otherwise. Furthermore its explicitly stated that Dessimbelackis made a pact with the last of their kind (Deragoth) so we have to assume that there were more.

To answer your other response. Yes the Deragoth must have been powerful to stop a KCCM invasion but there must have been more than the 7 that have survived. As I stated above there is no mention of the Imass contacting Dessimbelackis. I think Onrack in HOC claims that the Logros had little contact with the HFE. In fact Dessimbelackis vanished before the end of the HFE, some say veered before the madness of Soletaken took over.

As for 'going with it' ( the series I mean)- The HOS did destroy a company of over 200 men but the Deragoth easily ran through an army running after the HOS in TBH. In HOC the 2 Deragoth defeat a 'handful of Azalan demons' ( I think thats the quote the exact number maybe 5 IIRC), one of which could easily kill an entire encampment of rebels outside the fortress housing the remains of the Ashok regiment.

The Poliel comparison is also invalid. Poliel is not an ancient goddess thus may not have had access to an Elder Warren thus making her susceptible to otateral, though whether she was elder is unclear given the androgynous taloned form she took. Also lumping Poliel and Rake together ignores a clear hierarchy of ascendants of which Rake is usually near the top. One ascendent is not as good as another as Gesler and Stormy are well near their ascension yet can hardly be considered on the same tier.

That being said I can see your point. Power levels are never constant and can be difficult to reconcile.

This post has been edited by tiam: 26 October 2011 - 05:39 PM

[worry]

I personally think Poliel is not Elder, and that she's to D'rek what Oponn is to their predecessors. Same or similar aspect, some possible conflation between worshipers, but ultimately of the new batch of gods.

Not that D'rek is ever included in the list of Elder Gods, but I think that's more of a clique thing, and she fits alongside Togg & Fanderay nicely.

[tiam]

worrywort, on 26 October 2011 - 10:12 PM, said:

I personally think Poliel is not Elder, and that she's to D'rek what Oponn is to their predecessors. Same or similar aspect, some possible conflation between worshipers, but ultimately of the new batch of gods.

Not that D'rek is ever included in the list of Elder Gods, but I think that's more of a clique thing, and she fits alongside Togg & Fanderay nicely.

Yes Drek does seem to be ancient yet the form Poliel takes as a sort of FA KCCM hybrid suggests Elder, possibly in the same way Hood is Elder.

[Abberon]

tiam, on 26 October 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:

That being said I can see your point. Power levels are never constant and can be difficult to reconcile.

I just thought it was kind of weird. Ashok Regiment > Karsa Orlong > Deragoth > Azalath Demon> Ashok Regiment. Maybe it's just a rock-paper-scissors sort of thing lol.

[Abyss]

Quote

Power levels are never constant and can be difficult to reconcile.

The answer is.... oh, nevermind.

Point in time is a context that keeps being overlooked in ho'd win debates.

When the Ashok marines took out Karsa he was caught by surrpise, a tiny bit weaker than usual from imprisonment, hugely overconfident, and a house fell out from under him.

When Karsa took on the two Deragoth he was stronger than he ever had been before and had a shiny new invested rock sword. Plus the deragoth were overconfident.

The two Deragoth fought a number of Azalan and everyone retreated from the pointless fight - there was no winner. The Azalan couldn't commit to the fight even with bigger numbers because they were supposed to be there to fulfill Shadowthrone's missions.

The Azalan that aided Kalam stole shadows from a bunch of dying Whirlwind men Sinn had already poisoned (i think... my recall is a little spotty on that).

Point being, Wolverine would kick all their asses.

- Abyss, couldn't resist.

[tiam]

Yeh I know that Abyss but rather than me saying it (in a less funny way admittedly) and giving examples just thought 'meh'. The power levels bother some but not others it used to bother me but ive since become obsessed with the timeline so its small potatoes now

[worry]

tiam, on 27 October 2011 - 11:42 AM, said:

worrywort, on 26 October 2011 - 10:12 PM, said:

I personally think Poliel is not Elder, and that she's to D'rek what Oponn is to their predecessors. Same or similar aspect, some possible conflation between worshipers, but ultimately of the new batch of gods.

Not that D'rek is ever included in the list of Elder Gods, but I think that's more of a clique thing, and she fits alongside Togg & Fanderay nicely.

Yes Drek does seem to be ancient yet the form Poliel takes as a sort of FA KCCM hybrid suggests Elder, possibly in the same way Hood is Elder.

Hood is described by someone somewhere as neither Elder nor new (somewhat poetically, and sorry for the lack of quote fu), but he's a good example of how timeframe doesn't necessarily connote Elder God (the clique) status. And as for Poliel's appearance, you're right, but it could be an affectation. I don't remember if Soliel is described at all, let alone differently though. Either way, we know Poliel doesn't come from Elder God stock, the way we think of it, because she doesn't use Elder Warrens as her source of power -- hence the effect of otataral on her.

[tiam]

worrywort, on 27 October 2011 - 09:45 PM, said:

tiam, on 27 October 2011 - 11:42 AM, said:

worrywort, on 26 October 2011 - 10:12 PM, said:

I personally think Poliel is not Elder, and that she's to D'rek what Oponn is to their predecessors. Same or similar aspect, some possible conflation between worshipers, but ultimately of the new batch of gods.

Not that D'rek is ever included in the list of Elder Gods, but I think that's more of a clique thing, and she fits alongside Togg & Fanderay nicely.

Yes Drek does seem to be ancient yet the form Poliel takes as a sort of FA KCCM hybrid suggests Elder, possibly in the same way Hood is Elder.

Hood is described by someone somewhere as neither Elder nor new (somewhat poetically, and sorry for the lack of quote fu), but he's a good example of how timeframe doesn't necessarily connote Elder God (the clique) status. And as for Poliel's appearance, you're right, but it could be an affectation. I don't remember if Soliel is described at all, let alone differently though. Either way, we know Poliel doesn't come from Elder God stock, the way we think of it, because she doesn't use Elder Warrens as her source of power -- hence the effect of otataral on her.

Quoting the Hood elder quotes may be dangerous as this is the TTH forum but I see what you mean. Its from before TTH possibly MOI but yes he, and others, are in between entities. Poliel from my memory is described as largely FA making her sister probably FA with almost Shake style talons