[foolio]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 24 December 2010 - 09:12 AM, said:

Tatterdemalion, on 24 December 2010 - 04:53 AM, said:

PS: The guy with the pretty hands was Triban Gnol, eunich magistrate.

Triban Gnol was the chancellor not the eunuch, the eunuch drank the poison along with the King in MT. Had Gnol been an eunuch it would have been difficult for him to have sex with the Errant

his father by the way....

[Blueiron]

I was annoyed when Kuru Qan died, just for the record.

[chaosek]

Blueiron, on 26 January 2011 - 05:26 AM, said:

I was annoyed when Kuru Qan died, just for the record.

Second that, esp since he was killed by Trull, who for a reward got shorn. Trull is a good character but this really makes me hate him.

[King Bear]

chaosek, on 26 January 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

Blueiron, on 26 January 2011 - 05:26 AM, said:

I was annoyed when Kuru Qan died, just for the record.

Second that, esp since he was killed by Trull, who for a reward got shorn. Trull is a good character but this really makes me hate him.

Third that. I thought that Trull being a good guy really added to the tradegy of Kuru Qan's death. Rather than make me hate Trull, I felt really sad about the whole situation. Especially snice, in a way, Kuru and Trull were really on the same side. Trull loved his people but hated what the warlocks, Rhulad and the Crippled God were doing to them.

[BlackMoranthofDoom]

Both Trull's death and Murilio's were really dissapointing, especially after all we went through with those characters. I was really hoping that trull and fear would be reunited (not just for a short time) and march on Letheras together.
Murilio's was saddening for the simple fact that to me he, Rallick, Cutter, Kruppe and Coll are my favorite group of friends in the series and now the group feels incomplete.

[Red King]

Defiance, on 25 September 2010 - 05:20 AM, said:

Pointless deaths are an aspect of the series, fitting into the theme of tragedy - we'd all like to believe that we could die heroically, given that chance, but honestly, how often does that happen? Despite the crazy fantasy world, Erikson likes to tell things like they are.

Felisin's development was what led her to becoming Sha'ik. With her death, again, we see the tragedy here - Tavore kills her own sister, and Felisin is abandoned by the godess at the last minute. That said, I wasn't surprised to see her die.

DOD spoiler:

Spoiler

Concerning Heboric, just keep reading.

The following deaths I didn't find disappointing in the slightest, just incredibly depressing. It's hard for me to say for sure, but I think Coltaine's death got the most emotion out of me. It blew my mind, brought me close to tears, and it sent shivers down my spine. Rake's was spoiled for me, so by the time I read it I'd already accepted the fact that he was gone (well, mostly). Was still awesomely epic though. Beak would probably be second - I'd grown attached to him as a character, and his selfless sacrifice really got to me. Trull's and Whiskeyjack's were just really depressing (although WJ's made me angry too, if I recall).

For spoilers,

[*spoiler] [*/spoiler] Just remove the *

I agree with you on all of this. I remember Coltaine's death I physically put the book down and said "This is bullshit!" Whiskeyjack I raged too and trull was very depressing to the point where you had a problem accepting it to a degree. Rake wasn't spoiled for me so I was really torn when it came to his death because it was Traveller who was part of it and he's one of my other favorite characters so it was overly depressing and heart breaking with the double impact of the death and Traveller being cheated. But those guys really hit the button of people who really hit me hard.The only one that almost broke me was when Tehol almost died, god that was bad.

- Ultor

[rannald]

From TTH.. Bluepearl seriously the guy goes through everything in MOI with barely a mention and then dies in Kruls Bar......
i felt bad for him to be honest he was the only one of the surviving BB who got very little face time,
and then when he does get some it's his POV of him dying

[malrod]

whiskeyjack

[Dolorous Menhir]

The Mhybe.

It should have happened sooner.

[Ilona]

I'm right there with the guy who said something about most of these the deaths being not disappointing but depressing in their tragedy. After all, what's an epic 10-book series if it doesn't make you feel, and if a major character's death doesn't hit me in any way then I'll call it disappointing.

One that hasn't been mentioned yet but that kind of hit me hard was Ahlrada Ahn, or however his name was spelled. The Bluerose-Andii dude living among the Edur. At least he got to fight at Trull's side before the end.

Also Fear Sengar. I know I didn't much care for him during my two first read-throughs, but this time along I really like him all of a sudden (still halfway through RG).

Well... Maybe one death also disappointed me a bit. That being Murillio. I mean, in TTH we already lose Rake (fucking Anomander Rake) and a bunch of old school Bridgeburners. Did we have to lose Murillio, too? Wasn't it tragedy enough for him to realize that he's no longer 25? Couldn't we have left him to grow old in (relative, considering he was falling for Stonny Menackis) peace?

[Starvarld Demelain]

lobo the wolfman, on 25 September 2010 - 12:51 PM, said:

I remember that WJ's death shocked me when l first read it, but it was always Coltaines and the remains of the 7th's death that always made me want to throw the book against the nearest wall, no matter how many times l read and reread Deadhouse Gates. The only other author that has had that effect on me was GRRM.

True, I used to think GRRM was the greates at making me cry at the deaths of my favourite characters, but I must say SE owns that crown now. What I love about SE is that he makes you feel for even the lowliest character which is an art in itself, GRRM is good, but so far in his books when he kills of a character, they are usually the big shots, the deaths of the little people are just a sideshow no feeling s required, which isn't as realistic as SE.

Anyway I'm getting off topic, as a result of my recent re-read of TTH, I would say, discounting the obvious death of Rake, Murillos death hit me the hardest, and of course the bridgeburners, Mallet's in particular.

[tiam]

A factor in Murilios (and Trulls) is that they go with a whimper. Murilio can barely stand yet continues to save the life f child. A noble sacrifice even if the actual fight was tragic. WJ goes with a bang fighting an entity of power as does Rake. Trull though...if hed have fell against Iccy and went out with a bang it would have been more acceptable. Going out to a thugs knife in the back is what causes QB to rage against Sirryn Kanar and what makes it tragic.

[Starvarld Demelain]

Just thought of another one when Hood does his "Green Mile" walk to his execution, where death literally walks round meting out justice; i found that also quite profound in it's own way.

On a side note: I also kind of found it funny the way Saborgan dies, the random guy who keeps having to kill cockroaches.

[Whiskey Bass]

Whiskeyjack, trull and toc(all of his deaths)

[Abberon]

I have to say that Karsa slaughtering the Deragoth was hugely disappointing to me. They made such a big deal in HoC about how vicious and dangerous the Deragoth were. Apparently they were a huge obstacle in the T'lan Imass' obliteration of the First Empire, yet Karsa manages to kill them bare handed. It was a pretty big disappointment.

[tiam]

Abberon, on 21 October 2011 - 06:18 PM, said:

I have to say that Karsa slaughtering the Deragoth was hugely disappointing to me. They made such a big deal in HoC about how vicious and dangerous the Deragoth were. Apparently they were a huge obstacle in the T'lan Imass' obliteration of the First Empire, yet Karsa manages to kill them bare handed. It was a pretty big disappointment.

While I see what your saying a few things:

I dont recall the Deragoth being mentioned as stopping the Imass destroying the HFE. The only time theyre mentioned in this respect is stopping the KCCM from colonising the 7c mainland. Thats not to say its not mentioned but im fairly certain the Deragoth had been banished (whatever that means from the ghosts talking to Kalam in HOC) by the time the Empire fell hough ofc I may be wrong.

Yes there built up to an extent because they were the biggest and baddest in their day. However the key concept there is they WERE the biggest and baddest. I remember when people finished reading TBH for the first time and they were shocked at how easily the Trohbarol was killed. The Deragoth were released in an effort to combat the Trohbarol becaue they were the entities that had done it the first time. Paran himslef states that there may be other entities out there that can do it but he didnt have time to check. So the Deragoth in HOC, who just got out before the others, were supremely arrogant, thinking themselves still the dominant power on the continent.

This post has been edited by tiam: 21 October 2011 - 07:12 PM

[Abberon]

I believe in HoC, L'Oric witnesses a flashback of the T'lan Imass conquest of 7C. They're talking about how they'd finally driven off the "Seven Protectors" and therefore had won and could complete their purge. They spoke about it like it was a pretty big deal. The Seven Protectors, I think, could have only been the Deragoth, as they are the seven beast that Dessimelackis made his pact with. I just found it anti-climactic is all. I realize a big theme of the whole book is "out with the old and in with the new" and I get that. It's just that another of the themes has been, "the forces of nature are unstoppable" and that all civilizations fall victim to it eventually. The Deragoth seemed a perfect avatar for that and they just got owned by an ornery adolescent (albeit a Teblor).

This post has been edited by Abberon: 24 October 2011 - 07:17 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

Abberon, on 24 October 2011 - 05:58 PM, said:

I believe in HoC, L'Oric witnesses a flashback of the T'lan Imass conquest of 7C. They're talking about how they'd finally driven off the "Seven Protectors" and therefore had won and could complete their purge. They spoke about it like it was a pretty big deal.

i think you're conflating two separate events here. kalam sees a column of ghosts in HoC who talk about driving off the 'black beast', and they speak of dessimbelackis as though he is still human and trying to expand the First Empires borders. the ghosts are humans. t'lan imass don't make an appearance in this instance.

when the t'lan imass do appear, is at the collapse of the first empire, which occurs after dessimbelackis has already veered into/become the deragoth, and fled the chaos of the soletaken ritual. when onrack tells trull about their mop-up operation, he tells him that the HoS did not make an appearance. this is after he's already revealed some ignorance regarding the deragoth, which leads me to believe the t'lan imass never fought the deragoth either.

thirdly, the only time the t'lan imass are involved in a conquest, is when they're fighting for kellenved. otherwise they're just exterminators

lastly, karsa is as much a force of nature as any deragoth, and by this time, is a man in his own right (in teblor terms). so in this instance, it's more a case of two forces of nature colliding. karsa's heritage is as ancient as the deragoth, after all.

This post has been edited by Minhasing Bheget: 24 October 2011 - 08:33 PM

[tiam]

Abberon, on 24 October 2011 - 05:58 PM, said:

I believe in HoC, L'Oric witnesses a flashback of the T'lan Imass conquest of 7C. They're talking about how they'd finally driven off the "Seven Protectors" and therefore had won and could complete their purge. They spoke about it like it was a pretty big deal. The Seven Protectors, I think, could have only been the Deragoth, as they are the seven beast that Dessimelackis made his pact with. I just found it anti-climactic is all. I realize a big theme of the whole book is "out with the old and in with the new" and I get that. It's just that another of the themes has been, "the forces of nature are unstoppable" and that all civilizations fall victim to it eventually. The Deragoth seemed a perfect avatar for that and they just got owned by an ornery adolescent (albeit a Teblor).

As Sinisdar above has stated you are confusing two events. Loric is musing that it was because of the Deragoth the KKCM, not the Imass, were not able to fully colonise 7cities. The ghosts who drove off the 7 Holy Protectors are witnessed by Kalam, and here he meets the ghost of Tanno who is the Seneschal of Yghatan, or whatever its ancient name is in this instance. As for the Deragoth they are a force of nature. We see the easily run through an excellent Malazan army without even stopping. That they ran into the most powerful Tobakai warrior that weve seen so far doesnt mean theyre weak at all. Ofcourse if you were disappointed that your opinion but the Deragoth are still a force to be reckoned with as are the HOS, yet Rake put them down easier than Karsa put the Deragoth down

[worry]

I guess one thing you could say is that occasionally SE will have two mighty forces face off too soon, and by too soon I mean before you get a good handle on what made the newly-introduced force so awesome. He does a pretty great job of showing-not-telling with all the contemporary action, but sometimes with the ancient characters who come back he tells-without-showing and then it smacks into a superior of the modern world. This happens with the Deragoth, Dejim Nebrahl, The Pack, the Tarthenol gods on Lether, and probably a few creatures/beings I'm missing.

It's not the biggest thing in the world, cuz we can logically surmise what's going on. But I do think the books could have included a few more instances like the one in Reaper's Gale, where we get a one-off POV showing a human village being utterly wrecked by KCCM. And getting Dejim's POV did help lay him out pretty well in some regard, but we should have seen him feed a few times (I think we only hear about the caravan as an off-screen event? Don't quite remember).