[haroos]

1) when did the war between the akrynai and the barghast begin ?
there was no war when tool died, and the next scene it was a middle of a war.

2) how come setoc doesn't recognize daru, or trader tounge or names like darujistan and genabaris ?

3) is olar ethil burn ?
what was that about ?

4) when did the errant become such an asshole, didn't he feel sorry for people in MT ?
didn't he do what he did in RP in order to save people ?

5) regarding icarium and his ghosts, if i understood things correctly, they were part of him, although it was his body, right ?
they weren't outside of it, until he realized that , and then he woke up.
does it mean that they were indeed a part of him, or was it some kind of psychological repression ?
there was a part where he woke up briefly and felt great pain (in his hands iirc), what was that about ?

This post has been edited by haroos: 20 September 2010 - 02:05 PM

[Findarato]

haroos, on 20 September 2010 - 02:02 PM, said:

1) when did the war between the akrynai and the barghast begin ?
there was no war when tool died, and the next scene it was a middle of a war.

2) how come setoc doesn't recognize daru, or trader tounge or names like darujistan and genabaris ?

Setoc was a girl from Letherii, she never was on Genabackis.

3) is olar ethil burn ?
what was that about ?

She is not Burn herself, that is certain. pretty much all else about her true identity (she is a bonecaster, that I know, and maybe she has been an Imass once) is not yet clear (to me). there is a thread about this in the forum already.

4) when did the errant become such an asshole, didn't he feel sorry for people in MT ?
didn't he do what he did in RP in order to save people ?

the Errant was (or is) a god of chance, and as such he does not care about people's fates in terms of compassion. he just 'nudges' and things happen. and he seems to do that just as he likes at the moment. he becomes insane later, after his meeting with Feather Witch.

5) regarding icarium and his ghosts, if i understood things correctly, they were part of him, although it was his body, right ?
they weren't outside of it, until he realized that , and then he woke up.
does it mean that they were indeed a part of him, or was it some kind of psychological repression ?
there was a part where he woke up briefly and felt great pain (in his hands iirc), what was that about ?

Icarium lost his body after he used his (broken) machine. the people were residents of Letheras who were killed when this broken machine was activated, are the ones in this strange party. They all are wandering in a warren where they find the Kolanse Rooted. I won't tell you details about their identities since I don't know if you have finished the book.
The part with his hands was, if I recall correctly, when he realised the drone could see him (that he had a body again).

[Hetan]

1. The Barghast thought it was the Akrynnai who had killed the Barghast scouting party - they went to war for revenge.

2. Why would Setoc recognise any of those names? She's not from the Malazan Empire. She was taken in by wolves (Bonehunters I think that bit was in) and raised by them until the Barghast warrior found her.

3. No, but she has an ego.

4. The Errant has always been an asshole. He's just a bigger asshole in this book.

5. Icarium's ghosts are the souls of various people who were killed in Letheras, Taxillian, Rautos Hivanar, Feather Witch etc. Somehow after his machine exploded they became part of his psyche.

[Lister of Smeg]

Setoc first appeared in RG. Her brother Abasard was killed by Redmask when he raided a Letherii camp. She ran off to join the wolves before being taken in by the Barghast.

This post has been edited by Lister of Smeg: 20 September 2010 - 03:29 PM

[Abyss]

haroos, on 20 September 2010 - 02:02 PM, said:

1) when did the war between the akrynai and the barghast begin ?
there was no war when tool died, and the next scene it was a middle of a war.

The Bhargast were looking for a fight since the great enemy their mystics predicted had never shown up. The dead tribes (due to Nah'ruk) gave them an excuse to go to war.

Quote

2) how come setoc doesn't recognize daru, or trader tounge or names like darujistan and genabaris ?

She's Letherii and raised by Barghast, who speak Barghast.

Quote

3) is olar ethil burn ?
what was that about ?

Good question. Most likely she was babbling and/or lying.

Or some or all of the Elder gods are part of a massively powerful d'ivers thus technically if Olar and burn are from one original form then she is correct. see elsethread.

Quote

4) when did the errant become such an asshole, didn't he feel sorry for people in MT ?
didn't he do what he did in RP in order to save people ?

He also got Brys killed in MT and Trull killed in RG. He's never been entirely 'nice', but he did get worse when Feather Witch ate his eyeball and then he started spending time with the sea demon trapped under the palace. Mael speculated in RG that it was influencing him.

Quote

5) regarding icarium and his ghosts, if i understood things correctly, they were part of him, although it was his body, right ?
they weren't outside of it, until he realized that , and then he woke up. ...what was that about ?

His brain was frazzled by the device in Lether and his failed attempt to activate it. The attempt also absorbed the minds of random passerbye and FW's ghost who was hanging around. When the device improperly re-assembled Iccy's mind, it temporarily incorporated the absorbed personalities. In FW's case, since she was a High Mage by then, this included her power and aspects, thus the link to the Errant.

When his brain more or less healed he manifested one last personality, Veed, to eliminate the others, tho it wasn't clear whether Veed was entirely a construct or an absorbed personality.


- Abyss, prefers electro-shock therapy.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Just a comment about the pain in Icarium's hands...I don't really remember this part, but the machine worked by him putting his arms into it and his hands/wrists being cut and draining his blood to power the machine/new warrens. So it makes sense to me that when he finally realized he was still alive and had corporeal form that he still had some pain from whatever happened in the machine and he focused on it.

[haroos]

regarding the barghast - the attacks by the nah'ruks was done while tool was alive.
his death occured while he and a search group went to see hwat happened.
and yet from his death on, the next thing we know was the war (i don't remember if that was before even the hobbling).
so in effect the war started out of the blue.
just saying that a few pages more to explain the war wouldn't have made such a difference.


setoc - that cleared it, i thought she came with them from genabaris.
although that raises the question of how many years passed since the end of MoI to DoD.
if u look at the twins alone, then i would say 6-7 years.
(i wonder why kruppe didn't make an appearence for his daughters, surely he would have known somehow).

the errant - well, i can't argue with that, including the whole "the faith makes the god" theme and such,
but still, the other elder gods treat him like he was always like that.
he wasn't like that in MT.

[Abyss]

haroos, on 20 September 2010 - 04:09 PM, said:

regarding the barghast - the attacks by the nah'ruks was done while tool was alive.
his death occured while he and a search group went to see hwat happened...just saying that a few pages more to explain the war wouldn't have made such a difference.

It is explained. The guy who takes over from Tool (the united tribes, not the one clan) takes them to war glorious war as soon as he takes over, blaming the Aky'.

Quote

setoc - ...that raises the question of how many years passed since the end of MoI to DoD.

The timeline is not important the timeline is not important the timeline is NOT...

Quote

the errant - ... he wasn't like that in MT.

Yes he was. He drew Iron Bars and co to oppose the Pack, arguably a good deed, and later he nudged Brys to drink the wine, not so good a deed.

[haroos]

Abyss, on 20 September 2010 - 04:34 PM, said:

haroos, on 20 September 2010 - 04:09 PM, said:

regarding the barghast - the attacks by the nah'ruks was done while tool was alive.
his death occured while he and a search group went to see hwat happened...just saying that a few pages more to explain the war wouldn't have made such a difference.

It is explained. The guy who takes over from Tool (the united tribes, not the one clan) takes them to war glorious war as soon as he takes over, blaming the Aky'.

Quote

setoc - ...that raises the question of how many years passed since the end of MoI to DoD.

The timeline is not important the timeline is not important the timeline is NOT...

Quote

the errant - ... he wasn't like that in MT.

Yes he was. He drew Iron Bars and co to oppose the Pack, arguably a good deed, and later he nudged Brys to drink the wine, not so good a deed.

wasn't he nudged himself by feather witch ?
did she not order him to do things ?

[Abyss]

haroos, on 20 September 2010 - 04:45 PM, said:

...
wasn't he nudged himself by feather witch ?
did she not order him to do things ?

In RG, not MT, and then her influence was arguably subconscious, considering how the relationship ended.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I have to agree with haroos on this. In MT the Errant wasn't such a bad guy and the thing with Brys could be attributed to the fact that he is what he is. Then in RG the sea demon influence made him greedy of power and longing to return to his days of grandeur. Then FW ate his eye and started to talk in his head and he became even more nasty. He seemed to feel sorry for Trull's death( again he cannot control what he represents) but by DoD he's again trying to return to the power of the old days.

[Urizen]

I'd say the Errant was an asshole in MT as well. His supposedly good deed of helping take out the Pack was all about selfpreservation. He did not want the T'lan imass to come around and start kicking ass a taking names.

[Ulrik]

After reread of MT I must say that Errant was bastard all the time. All "good" deed were done by profit for himself.

[Sinisdar Toste]

the barghast were itchin to fight anyone. like hetan says to tool (paraphrased) "we are warriors, find us an enemy!"

blaming the akrynnai for the dead scouting parties and what not was just plain convenient. consider their actions in the context of spites words to mappo back in tBH about people choosing the wrong enemy and announcing their enemy, for their enemy. they are (not) surprisingly prescient regarding the barghast.

also, and granted this might not be true, weren't some of the clans already splintering away from tools rule and attacking akrynnai trading posts at the start of the book?

[worry]

The Errant is having an existential crisis. Gothos's ritual has broken up, and the continent of Lether is basically joining the rest of the world again. So in MT, the Errant thinks of himself as a nice guy perhaps, but we see what he truly is in RG and DoD because he feels his neck is on the chopping block. I think he becomes aware of Oponn in those later books, right? So he starts out this big fish in a small pond who can afford to pretend he's a nice guy who's just doing his job, so to speak, and then his world gets rocked and starts feeling threatened, and he starts acting like the cornered animal he really is.

[lobo the wolfman]

In regards with the Errant, didn't he also turn extra nasty when he realised that after how many odd years of being Master of the Holds, his role is now meaningless and he has been replaced by the new Master of the Deck, Paran?

[Gothos]

He's getting desperate because the New is replacing the Old, and he's the cornerstone of the Old. There's no place for him left in the world and he's got nothing to lose.

But he always was something of a douche. A real asshole, in fact. Like, he nudged Brys towards sipping from the poisoned goblet. He allowed the court of Lether to grow more and more decadent and backstabbing over the millenia and reveled in it.
Come to think of it, I'd say he'd do much worse things than the Crippled God if he had the power to do so. He might just the most despicable creature in the series.

[haroos]

Gothos, on 21 September 2010 - 08:33 AM, said:

He's getting desperate because the New is replacing the Old, and he's the cornerstone of the Old. There's no place for him left in the world and he's got nothing to lose.

But he always was something of a douche. A real asshole, in fact. Like, he nudged Brys towards sipping from the poisoned goblet. He allowed the court of Lether to grow more and more decadent and backstabbing over the millenia and reveled in it.
Come to think of it, I'd say he'd do much worse things than the Crippled God if he had the power to do so. He might just the most despicable creature in the series.

i'm not disagreeing with you, but everything you point is revealed or viewed after MT.
again, i don't remember him doing bad things in MT, he even seemed desperate at how people reacted to each other.
i think much of his character was exposed retroactively.

[Ulrik]

He backed whole Lether ruling system, thats enough bad for me. He made Brys drink poison... In MT, he was mainly selfish, trying to hold his power...this continues, but is more desperate and more ruthless...

[Abyss]

Gothos, on 21 September 2010 - 08:33 AM, said:

...He allowed the court of Lether to grow more and more decadent and backstabbing over the millenia and reveled in it....

Ulrik, on 21 September 2010 - 07:08 PM, said:

He backed whole Lether ruling system, thats enough bad for me. ...

Diagree. The Letherii system developped of its own accord and the Errant basically survived in it, but based on his limitted aspect when we see him in MT i'd say he's far from responsible for it, nor would he have been in a position to do anything about it for fear of messing up the thin shred of worship he still had.

All of which is to say he's a bastard for a host of reasons but that isn't one of them. The thing with the Chancellor who was his own descendent now that, THAT was sick...