[Silencer]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 17 October 2010 - 01:37 AM, said:

Silencer, on 17 October 2010 - 01:16 AM, said:

I can't remember exactly, but wasn't the 12 million, the reference pertained to no specific place OR TIME?

For example, if Kallor just killed 7 million people to curse the Elder Gods, and his had ruled this continent for more than however many years it is that took him to conquer it (i.e. he has been on the throne for at least 10 additional years), then does it not follow that, over the course of his conquest, he has had more than the present 7 million inhabitants of his empire under his power?

Essentially, K'rul is talking cumulative, not what he has at present.

Like, when we talk about Stalin having more than 40 million people killed during his reign, we don't mean he killed 40 million at once. Right?

Same thing here. Over the course of his conquest and rule, Kallor has had a total of 12 million people under his power. He just killed 7 million of the most recent subjects to curse the EG's, there's nothing to say the previous 5 million didn't die of natural causes, or during war, or by Kallor's cruelty prior to his mass genocide.

Discrepancy = solved?

Idk, its a nice semantic argument, but I think there is probably something wrong with him only having ruled over 12 million people if he ruled for 50 years or more. Considering there were 7 million there (at least) to be killed en masse at the end, it seems like over the period of that half century there would have been more than a total of 12 million people. I know he didn't start with an empire of a full continent, but I also didn't get the impression it was new at the time of the MoI prologue.

The exact quote is something about having enslaved 12 million souls, which I have a theory as meaning he somehow captured the souls of those people (perhaps similar to someone else we see later in the series). Which explains why the 7 million and 12 million dollar quotes are unrelated.

@HD Yea I think the Jaghut had some way of forcing their will upon people considering that was what Raest tried to do when he woke up (he said he couldn't to Silannah because she was a true Eleint and wouldn't be a slave or something like that. Also he tries to do it to Paran who refuses because of his Hounds blood only).

Well, I was thinking he only ruled for like ten years, but was conquering for fifty. Which makes the number a lot more sensible.

The question would be why he only bothered to use 7 of the 12 million souls he had enslaved in the curse, though.

@Illy - that's the other thing I was thinking, and it makes sense to me. But everyone else is disagreeing with your Korel theory...

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Yea I guess the numbers thing is possible, but it still seems like odd wording for that reasoning.

And I agree that Korel being a part of his Empire and having colonies there that comprise the missing 5 million people would make this a non-issue. I just don't remember a part in the books where its mentioned that he conquered anywhere but Jacuruku (in that initial empire before he was cursed).

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJackDaniels: 17 October 2010 - 07:50 AM

[Thel Akai]

ShadowRaven, on 16 September 2010 - 03:23 PM, said:

The way I understood it was that he was mostly just boasting, but Kallor could have been talking about the Imass after the ritual, because it could constitute a rebirth of sorts, and thus he might consider them children (he might not even know that they have once been something else than undead, but this is debatable). This would also make sense because weren't normal humans already around when the Imass performed the ritual?

Kilava
MODGOD EDIT MINOR HOUSE OF CHAINS SORT-OF SPOILER BLOCKED

Spoiler

is supposed to be the ancestor of humans, and she

was around at the time of the first ritual (and she rejected it, as we know), so there couldn't have been any humans in existence yet (unless physical time travel gets introduced at some point in the series).

Quote

Or there's always the option that after the Imass had found all the Jaghut they could they might have been inactive for long periods of time (didn't Tool state in GotM that Kellanved taking the first throne reawakened them?). If that is the case then Kallor might not even know how old they were as a race, or why they didn't interfere with his empire. One other thing is that we don't know how old Kallor was when he formed his empire, he could well have lived for hundreds of years via alchemy at that point already.

He could be ignorant, yes. Particularly if he really is human, human brains aren't capable of holding memories or knowledge covering an unending number of human lifespans.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 18 October 2010 - 02:58 PM
Reason for edit: SPOILER blocked

[Abyss]

Thel Akai, on 18 October 2010 - 10:12 AM, said:

... so there couldn't have been any humans in existence yet (unless physical time travel gets introduced at some point in the series)....

Not exactly. Science (!) tells us that neanderthals and homo erectus and possibly other proto human variations likely co-existed. Factor in things like other-dimensional Tiste invasions, and K'chain lizard races mucking about with genetics or whatever and wildly varying rates of evolution are entirely workable.

That said, i tend to think Kallor was prone to exagerration.

Also, as a general point (but also re the HoC spoiler I blocked above) myths and history are NOT to be trusted, especially creation myths and entirely subjective versions told by people like Kallor who have a rather narrow view of things and/or may be insane.

[Thel Akai]

Abyss,
Thanks for adding the < spoiler> thing.. when writing that I wasn't aware of which subforum this thread's in (the downside of reading threads via 'View New Content').

[Azathmaster]

Weave, on 17 September 2010 - 03:11 AM, said:

I've just reread the prologue, and I actually think the "discrepency" is a whole lot simpler to explain. Kallor has just raised the continent and the 12 million there in, but the 7 million, is the actual amount of bones he sits/his throne resides on/in. It's from these 7 million that he draws the power to curse the three elder Gods. The 7 million was likely the major bastion of The Kallorian Empire, with the remaining 5 million being in all the out lying territories.
Seems a bit of a stretch the more I try to rationalise now I've come to type it out actually....
Perhaps the 7 million sacrifoces were that? Willing sacrifices who gave their lives to grant Kallor the power required to Curse three EG, and he 'only' had to kill 5 million?

Judging by Kallors personality, the fact that mages lured an immensely powerful god from another world to destroy him, and the fact that he murdered everyone in his empire, he probably did not have anyone who would willingly sacrifice their lives for him. The first part of your explanation makes sense, it would be easier and faster to kill the ones closer to his capital to make the throne of bones than to go to places further away.

[worry]

The 7 million went into his curse, the other 5 million went into making his vitality-sustaining candles a la the wax witch method. I'm sure he made this a practice one way or another long before the curse or this mass destruction, hence the description of his empire as "soul devouring". Perhaps he was attempting to reach ascendancy via absorption of human souls, and never quite made it before he was confronted.

[amphibian]

worrywort, on 19 December 2010 - 12:18 AM, said:

The 7 million went into his curse, the other 5 million went into making his vitality-sustaining candles a la the wax witch method. I'm sure he made this a practice one way or another long before the curse or this mass destruction, hence the description of his empire as "soul devouring". Perhaps he was attempting to reach ascendancy via absorption of human souls, and never quite made it before he was confronted.

Do you have any proof of this?

[MTS]

Since Kallor's Century Candles aren't magical but instead made from sea-worms I doubt he does.

[Roldom]

TTH spoiler, read at your peril!

Spoiler

in TTH when there wandering through bastion kallor looks at the temple of the dying god and they say

Aranatha says the entire city is sanctified.'
Kallor glanced over. 'I once attempted that for an entire empire.'
Skintick snorted. 'With you as the focus of worship?'
'Of course.'

perhaps when he sanctified his empire he claimed some of those souls? and they got used up then?

[worry]

If you don't think sea-worms are magical then I just don't know what to say.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

But Kallor specifically tells that he wouldn't mind the end of magic because he only uses alchemy, like the sea-worm candles, and stresses particularly the fact that alchemy isn't magic

[worry]

Yah, that was a joke. I don't actually think sea-worms are magical. MTS made a good point.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 20 December 2010 - 06:04 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Ah I see. Humour and sarcasm are lost a bit in written form