[ranman]

I love this series, and I loved this book too, but oddly enough in this book the battles were all really poorly done. When compared with some of the amazing battles in previous books it was a bit of a let down. Although I fully believe this series is entertaining for a lot more than just the "action".

At any rate, the two battles with the Barghast were interrupted non-events because of the sudden appearance of super-power gods. The book never explained what it was that came and tore up the earth and killed the armies in the first battle, but I was assuming it was Kilmandaros?

In the second battle Draconis came down and smothered the two armies... kind of silly that he would arrive just at the two armies were about to clash. He came from Draginpur, why would he land on top of two armies in the middle of the wastelands? I think it was a bit of a stretch.

The biggest plot stretch in my mind was the Na-Ruk army dropping out of the sky on top of the bonehunters. What a crappy way to destroy an army that he had invested so much time on. Obviously they're really going to be hurting even if they do survive as an army after that battle. It's a crappy way for it to end. It wasn't even an exciting battle, it was over in a couple pages and there was no build-up, it just happened.

The last battle which was kind of a climax to the book really was unimpressive because the reader doesn't really care about the people dying in the battle, they're just armies of lizards. Of course we wanted Stormy and Gesler to survive, but beyond that it wasn't quite as much of a climax as it should have been.

With that said, I loved the rest of the book, I was just mainly disappointed with the battle scenes. Too many surprise plot twists that seemed like they didn't fit.

[Abyss]

heya.

Firstly, welcome, I see this is like your third post so a brief intro - i'm going to disagree with you - a lot, - but don't take it personally. You raise some good points worth discussing...

ranman, on 07 September 2010 - 05:30 PM, said:

...The book never explained what it was that came and tore up the earth and killed the armies in the first battle, but I was assuming it was Kilmandaros?

Nope. it was Nah'ruk skykeeps. The gathering stormclouds are the hint and this also establishes that the Nah'ruk are in the habit of destroying anyone and anything in their path.

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In the second battle Draconis came down and smothered the two armies... kind of silly that he would arrive just at the two armies were about to clash. He came from Draginpur, why would he land on top of two armies in the middle of the wastelands? I think it was a bit of a stretch.

It DOES seem rather random, doesn't it?

Two reasons i can see - 1) convergence - the presence of the two armies was sufficient 'power' to draw Draconus' exit gate from Dragnipur, or 2) Draconus needed lives to power up his sword 'Darkness', and two armies invested in killing each other were more convenient and less distasteful than wiping out innocent bystanders.

We've argued this quite a bit but those are the two theories i figure work.

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The biggest plot stretch in my mind was the Na-Ruk army dropping out of the sky on top of the bonehunters. What a crappy way to destroy an army that he had invested so much time on. Obviously they're really going to be hurting even if they do survive as an army after that battle. It's a crappy way for it to end. It wasn't even an exciting battle, it was over in a couple pages and there was no build-up, it just happened.

Yep, and the book even suggests it's just shit luck.

I waver on this one... as a result of the clash with the Nah'ruk, a couple of things happen...

1) the Bonehunters are hardened even more than before;
2) to the power that be, it appears (wrongly) that the one more or less non-aligned human force most likely to interfere with whatever is happening in Kolanse has been taken out; and,
3) the Nah'ruk were sufficently weakened that Stormy and Gesler's Che'malle force could take them out.

...so it seems that despite appearances, something major happened when that gate opened spilling the Nah'ruk into the one force in the world that could give them pause and give the Che'malle enough time to prepare and stop them utterly.

So was it really just shit luck, or was there much more going on there than is immediately apparent.

As for climax...

Gudd's charge, Keneb's death, QB's acorn onslaught of DOOM, Hedge's Bridgeburners charging in, Koryk getting his shit back together, most of the Ashok survivors dying, Lostara pulling a Shadow Dance, Bottle dropping wyval bombs, the Kendryl's charge, Brys' reaction when the BH's manage to stop the Nah'ruk army... holy crap how many more major events do you want???

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The last battle which was kind of a climax to the book really was unimpressive because the reader doesn't really care about the people dying in the battle, they're just armies of lizards. Of course we wanted Stormy and Gesler to survive, but beyond that it wasn't quite as much of a climax as it should have been.

By that point Kalyth's storyline has given us a lot of perspective on the Che'malle including Sag Churok and Gunth Mas, and if you don't care what happens to Stormy and Gesler than you're cold and dead inside and nothing i can say will save you from eternal damnation and wedgies.

Plus we had the manicly effective tactics of Stormy and Gesler (i, for one, cheered at the 'split the ve'gath and run the kell right down their throats! thing), skykeeps vs dragon cities in the sky, Icarium charging in and everything that followed, Sinn and Grub saving the day, Bent EATING A NAH'RUK'S FACE OFF....



ANyhoo, that's my $0.02CND.

[Ulrik]

Abyss, on 07 September 2010 - 05:50 PM, said:

Gudd's charge, Keneb's death, QB's acorn onslaught of DOOM, Hedge's Bridgeburners charging in, Koryk getting his shit back together, most of the Ashok survivors dying, Lostara pulling a Shadow Dance, Bottle dropping wyval bombs, the Kendryl's charge, Brys' reaction when the BH's manage to stop the Nah'ruk army... holy crap how many more major events do you want???

Oh maaaan, thats what I needed to begin my reread!

[Sinisdar Toste]

Abyss, on 07 September 2010 - 05:50 PM, said:

Gudd's charge, Keneb's death, QB's acorn onslaught of DOOM, Hedge's Bridgeburners charging in, Koryk getting his shit back together, most of the Ashok survivors dying, Lostara pulling a Shadow Dance, Bottle dropping wyval bombs, the Kendryl's charge, Brys' reaction when the BH's manage to stop the Nah'ruk army... holy crap how many more major events do you want???

You forgot QB lighting a few thousand nah'ruk on fire

[ranman]

Abyss, on 07 September 2010 - 05:50 PM, said:

heya.

Firstly, welcome, I see this is like your third post so a brief intro - i'm going to disagree with you - a lot, - but don't take it personally. You raise some good points worth discussing...

Thanks for the response. I'm a long time reader of the forums, because really, after thousands and thousands of pages of story, there's a LOT a person can miss

I don't take it personally either, because I think mostly I'm just mad that the bonehunters got smashed so badly...

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Nope. it was Nah'ruk skykeeps. The gathering stormclouds are the hint and this also establishes that the Nah'ruk are in the habit of destroying anyone and anything in their path.

Yeah, I can see that as a bit of foreshadowing... how did Tool know what it was? I guess it does explain why he suggested the Barghast run away and seek refuge in Lether.

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Two reasons i can see - 1) convergence - the presence of the two armies was sufficient 'power' to draw Draconus' exit gate from Dragnipur, or 2) Draconus needed lives to power up his sword 'Darkness', and two armies invested in killing each other were more convenient and less distasteful than wiping out innocent bystanders.

I like the idea that he cared enough not to wipe out innocent bystanders. Not sure if he really is changed by his time in the sword, but he "seemed" nice enough, whatever that means.

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Yep, and the book even suggests it's just shit luck.

I waver on this one... as a result of the clash with the Nah'ruk, a couple of things happen...

1) the Bonehunters are hardened even more than before;
2) to the power that be, it appears (wrongly) that the one more or less non-aligned human force most likely to interfere with whatever is happening in Kolanse has been taken out; and,
3) the Nah'ruk were sufficently weakened that Stormy and Gesler's Che'malle force could take them out.

...so it seems that despite appearances, something major happened when that gate opened spilling the Nah'ruk into the one force in the world that could give them pause and give the Che'malle enough time to prepare and stop them utterly.

So was it really just shit luck, or was there much more going on there than is immediately apparent.

yeah yeah, of course there was more going on than was apparant, and I'm sure in the next book it will all be explained, but I'll still be angry if Quick Ben or Bottle are dead.

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By that point Kalyth's storyline has given us a lot of perspective on the Che'malle including Sag Churok and Gunth Mas, and if you don't care what happens to Stormy and Gesler than you're cold and dead inside and nothing i can say will save you from eternal damnation and wedgies.

LOL - yeah I do care about Gesler and Stormy, and Kalyth, and even Che-malle ones, but why didn't they show up a day earlier ? That would have made me much happier.. although it would have been a pretty silly plot twist in itself.


Kind of off topic, but my favorite battle in this series in the one in ROTCG where it was describing what it was like to be fighting in a phlanx. I can't remember the character's name right now... but I remember it describing the anticipation of battle, then the sweat and piss. Bodies pressed together, the guy in front dies and you're pushed forward... then the square turns and you get a break from the fighting. That was very very well written in my opinion. There were lots of other well written battles in this series but that was my favorite.

[ranman]

Ok you're right there was some pretty kick-ass stuff that happened. It was nice that finally Quick Ben was letting loose with everything he had. And Bottle did some pretty awesome stuff with the Wyval.

[Abyss]

y'know, looking at your post a certain way, maybe you're mostly just bummed that characters you liked died or took such a serious asskicking...
which says a lot for what the author gets the reader to invest in his fictional creations. We ALL want QB to be alive because TCG without QB is like PBJ without Bacon. What?


re

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how did Tool know what it was?

Iirc, he didn't know what it was, just that is was very, very BAD.
Best guess: a few hundred thousand years of experience and whatever residual mojo from being the Imass First sword.

[Sanctume]

There was also that foreshadowing of the Bolkano Queen's daughter, talked to Mael at sea--the story about being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The BH was at the wrong place at the wrong time--the fight was between KCCM and KCNRs.

That was a climax, Icarium unleashing Ice Haunt + Root + Blueiron magic turning Errant eyeball into Azath seed; and the sky keep battles.
I can't quite imagine mountain sized sky battles falling down around troop land battles.

[Defiance]

Draconus is a badass motherfucker. Because he is a badass motherfucker, he killed tens of thousands of people on his return. It's a great way for him to say to the other powers "hey motherfuckers, I'm back."

The Nah'ruk thing's randomness was on purpose (although this was alluded to earlier in the book...something about them being in the heart of the storm so it's calm and people only being able to see the storm from the outside. I believe this was with the Bolkando princess). I think it really makes a good point - things don't always go the way we plan. There's other stuff going on in the world beyond the Bonehunters, something we forget after spending so much time with them. Not everyone is focused on TCG right now - another thing people might have come to believe up until that point in the book, because it does seem like almost everyone is focused on that final convergence.

In a way, this reminded me of Trull's death. Tragic and pointless. Yet, isn't that one of the hardest truths of the world? How often is death not tragic and pointless? Sure, we'd like to believe if we were to die in battle that we'd die honorably, for a purpose, for a reason. But how often does that really happen? One of the reasons I love Erikson so much is he doesn’t shy away from hard truths.

[Abyss]

Sinisdar Toste, on 07 September 2010 - 06:07 PM, said:

Abyss, on 07 September 2010 - 05:50 PM, said:

Gudd's charge, Keneb's death, QB's acorn onslaught of DOOM, Hedge's Bridgeburners charging in, Koryk getting his shit back together, most of the Ashok survivors dying, Lostara pulling a Shadow Dance, Bottle dropping wyval bombs, the Kendryl's charge, Brys' reaction when the BH's manage to stop the Nah'ruk army... holy crap how many more major events do you want???

You forgot QB lighting a few thousand nah'ruk on fire

...from their LUNGS. OUT!

Defiance, on 07 September 2010 - 07:39 PM, said:

Draconus is a badass motherfucker. Because he is a badass motherfucker, he killed tens of thousands of people on his return. It's a great way for him to say to the other powers "hey motherfuckers, I'm back."

That too.
I mean, he was considering destroying the world, so what's an army or two as an appetiser?

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...Yet, isn't that one of the hardest truths of the world? How often is death not tragic and pointless? Sure, we'd like to believe if we were to die in battle that we'd die honorably, for a purpose, for a reason. But how often does that really happen? One of the reasons I love Erikson so much is he doesn't shy away from hard truths.

Ay. Men.

[HoosierDaddy]

Tell me you didn't get shivers when "HAIL THE MARINES!" went up and down the line.

All the individual heroics around the Marine trench and later as the heavies stood up makes a great juxtaposition of a statement later on by Gesler about how human's didn't know when to get, and if dying was their only choice they'd do it the way they wanted.

[TheSurvivor]

DoD was supposed to be a cliffhanger and by having all these convoluted events take place at the end and with so many dying and seeming to die would make anyone and everyone that much more eager to see the final chapter. It's all about building suspense with cliffhangers no matter how much the writer's name is cursed. Oh, and the name of the marine in the phalanx is Nait a.k.a Sergeant Jumpy.

P.S. I'm not saying Erikson's name is cursed; just expressing that cliffhangers cause frustration at having to wait.

[Defiance]

Personally, I love cliffhangers. I find, more often than not, I get more disappointed when a book doesn't end with one than when one does.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Abyss, on 07 September 2010 - 06:49 PM, said:

y'know, looking at your post a certain way, maybe you're mostly just bummed that characters you liked died or took such a serious asskicking...
which says a lot for what the author gets the reader to invest in his fictional creations. We ALL want QB to be alive because TCG without QB is like PBJ without Bacon. What?


re

Quote

how did Tool know what it was?

Iirc, he didn't know what it was, just that is was very, very BAD.
Best guess: a few hundred thousand years of experience and whatever residual mojo from being the Imass First sword.

No I'm pretty sure Tool knew what it was. Listen to this exchange with Hetan after the first Barghast clan was suddenly eradicated.

DoD p. 312

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'On this day, Barghast blood has been spilled.'
'One of the outlying clans?'
He grimaced. 'There is no place on this earth, Hetan, where the Imass have not walked. That presence greets my eyes thick as fog, a reminder of ancient things no matter where I look.'
'Does it blind you?'
'It is my belief,' he replied, 'that it blinds all of us.'
She frowned, unsure of his meaning. 'To what?'
'That we were not the first to do so.'
His response chilled her down in her bones. 'Tool, have we found our enemy?'
The question seemed to startle him. 'Perhaps. But...'
'What?'
'I hope not.'

Seems pretty clear from that exchange that Tool knew what they were gonna hafta go up against.

[Sinisdar Toste]

that does sound like he's remembering floating mountains that shoot lightning.

[Tattersail_]

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As for climax...

Gudd's charge, Keneb's death, QB's acorn onslaught of DOOM, Hedge's Bridgeburners charging in, Koryk getting his shit back together, most of the Ashok survivors dying, Lostara pulling a Shadow Dance, Bottle dropping wyval bombs, the Kendryl's charge, Brys' reaction when the BH's manage to stop the Nah'ruk army... holy crap how many more major events do you want???

I will give you £1million for your 2 cents Amazing,I want to re read now, currently I am reading a Bill Bryson Book about Oz cause I go next month, but the minute I get home I am pulling out The Malazans for the 4th time By the time I finish, tCG will be out October, November, December, 1 book every 2 weeks on a slow read maybe speed up in December

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I thought that the ominous clouds that went round scaring the shit out of everyone and killed all them people was that swarm of man eating giant locus talked about in the prologue. must have been half asleep

[ranman]

Ok, as long as Bottle, QB, Tarr and Fiddler didn't die, I'll be fine. But I am mad at Keneb for being a dumbass and dying... I think he was so stressed out from the march that he made a big mistake and wasn't thinking straight.

When does the next book come out? It was cruel enough dropping a Na-Ruk bomb on the Bonehunters, I hope he doesn't make us wait a year to find out what happened!

[Tattersail_]

january in england I think

[Gothos]

TBH of all that awesomeness, the obliteration of the Burned Tears felt like a rag-tag swiping away of a failed story element. Like he didn't really know wth to do with them or decided they weren't as cool as it seemed back in HoC and just swept them away in one passage.

Anyways, note that even with the Bonehunters' sacrifice, KCCM wouldn't have defeated the short tails if not for Icarium dashing in. It does seem kind of orchestrated at some level.

Also - Nah'ruk maybe? Just make it less draconic and more lizardish, add lightning backpacks and voila!
Do we even have any Nah'ruk fanart?