[Gothos]

Ah. So why the detour to Lether, then? "Just" liberation? Was taking down Rhulad that important - I mean, Karsa had it covered. Vengeance for imperial citizens then? Why not sail straight to Kolanse? Or was it precisely to blunt the Nahr'rhuk and deliver Stormy and Gesler to where they had to be?

[Hetan]

It was primarily to take out Rhulad with his combined Edur and Letherii forces.
With his being under the influence of the Crippled God he had to be subdued and his sword dealt with.
Did she know about Karsa? I don't think so, and even if she had, I doubt she could take the chance that either he or another champion might pick up the Crippled God's sword and become another puppet emperor, with mastery over the Andii wraiths etc.

[haroos]

Asmodeus de, on 25 August 2010 - 08:25 PM, said:

There's one thing that bothers me, from a military/strategic POV. Perhaps this has ben adressed in the books and I just missed it but....

Why did the Bonehunters invade Lether? The obvious answer is to topple the oppressive Edur regime that was controlled/influenced by the Crippled God. Liberation is a good and noble casue and I can agree with that. But it seems like an unecessary detour. All things point to that the main action is in Kolanse. That's where the heart of the CG lies, that is where the FA prepare... whatever they do. Why bother with Lether? Why land there, destroy the transports, waste valuable time fighting the Letherii troops and then march all the way to Kolanse? Why not go directly to Kolanse by boat, and just skip Lether and the march through the Wastelands. Sure, it's nice to liberate a people, but we're talking about stopping the end of the world. Surely haste is a good thing?

And again, let's say that there was a reason that Lether had to be liberated first. Why march through the Wastelands? Why not go to Kolanse by boat (I know they burned the transports, but hire or commision new ones)?

I hope there will be at least some reason given in the upcoming book why they had to do what they did because from a military POV I can't make any sense whatsoever of it.

they didn't "have to", they were pushed.
by shadowthrone.
just like he kidnapped quick ben to help defend the throne of shadow.
t'ambre was part of that as well, as in her death she did something to icarium, that made him calm his rage.
the perish with their own call for justice.

[Hetan]

T'amber had nothing to do with Icarium, that was the eres'al.

I doubt that Tavore would take all her troops sailing into Kolanse and a situation about which she had little or no intelligence and we have seen that Tavore understands tactics very very well.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Plus I'm sure they wanted allies behind them helping with their supply. The BH were under the assumption that the Edur has subjugated the Letherii humans. They probably figured once they kicked some Edur ass they could gain a kingdom as allies before their trek across the wastelands. And they didn't do a bad job of that either, getting some troops, Brys, and help from Mael.

Though I agree with above posters that the biggest reason was neutralizing Rhulad and his sword.

[Abyss]

We still don't know all there is to know about Tavore and why she's doing what she's doing, but it's clear she's getting guidance from somewhere.

She knew the 14th had to go to Malaz island to pick up Withal, tho at the time she didn't necessarily know why. Withal, being the smith who made Rhulad's sword, was the best person to break it and had to be in Lether during the convergence. I doubt Tavore knew the specifics, but there it is.

I agree with the upthread discussion as to the logic behind the invasion, especially in terms of not leaving a CG controlled Letherii/Edur Empire at the 14th's back, but also note that 'giving answer' was the excuse Tavore gave the troops to keep them on mission. I'd guess that the invasion also had the effect of blooding/hardening the army for Kolanse.

While it's hinted that the CG has various cults and empires in various places, leaving him linked to Rhulad might have interferred with whatever is going to happen in Kolanse.

- Abyss, also notes that the Letherii/edur Empire just really needed its ass kicked.

[haroos]

Hetan, on 22 September 2010 - 03:30 PM, said:

T'amber had nothing to do with Icarium, that was the eres'al.

I doubt that Tavore would take all her troops sailing into Kolanse and a situation about which she had little or no intelligence and we have seen that Tavore understands tactics very very well.

i meant the eresal that possessed t'ambre.

[Ulrik]

But she didnt die. It was T´amber or Eres´al. T´a mber died, Eresal went to her time...times...time loops...whatever... And guy raping:)

[HoosierDaddy]

I guess I did just make up that part. Probably got confused with the Princess and Shurq's boat getting ready to be assaulted by the big-ass storm. Still, four out of five in seven minutes ain't too bad.

[Salt-Man Z]

darkul, on 22 September 2010 - 10:07 AM, said:

And why should [Withal] be the only one able to destroy it? Are we with Tolkien here (can only be destroyed where it was forged, in this case by whom it was forged, and all is good again)? I doubt it.

But...isn't that exactly what Withal did? And besides that, isn't that the reason it took Burn's Hammer to break Dragnipur in TtH?

[Seras]

Salt-Man Z, on 22 September 2010 - 08:23 PM, said:

darkul, on 22 September 2010 - 10:07 AM, said:

And why should [Withal] be the only one able to destroy it? Are we with Tolkien here (can only be destroyed where it was forged, in this case by whom it was forged, and all is good again)? I doubt it.

But...isn't that exactly what Withal did? And besides that, isn't that the reason it took Burn's Hammer to break Dragnipur in TtH?

Wait, what? So you're saying Draconus used Burn's Hammer to forge Dragnipur?
I'd always assumed it was because it was the only other weapon capable of destroying it...


EDIT: Found the scene I was looking for, here it is:

"I can tell you now who broke Dragnipur. There could be no other. The Warlord."

"Brood. Yes, I see that. The weapon he holds - none other. But that only confuses things all the more. Rake would not have willingly surrendered that weapon, not even to Caladan Brood."

"We are agreed the Son of Darkness is dead? Yet his slayer did not take Dragnipur. Can it be that the Warlord killed him?"

"Centuries of speculation - who was the deadlier of the two? Have we our answer? This is absurd - can any of us even imagine a cause that would so divide those two? With the history they shared?"

This post has been edited by Erayle: 22 September 2010 - 11:31 PM

[iRFNA]

darkul, on 22 September 2010 - 10:07 AM, said:

So I have a questions to all the parttakers here:
Do you make notes, lists, gather details in an excel sheet and such to know so much or do you just recollect all of those details you mention out of your mind?
Sure, there is the wiki for that, but that is by far not complete. Is anyone of you also working in that wiki-project?

Last evening I wanted to start with a list. After the first 40 pages of GotM I came to realize that it would take years to collect all those fine filaments scattered over kilograms of words.
I mean, how can one remember after 8000 pages where someone mentioned what is where in the book, which detail makes someone being this or that, knowing, guessing, revealing some secret in some coded phrase or sentence?
Yes, there is the possibility using digital search, but that is not the Holy Grail.

The conclusion was: Lad, read it several times and you'll find out or find new things that make you wonder/ponder. Is that it easy?

Ya, I've read the books multiple times and sorta memorized most everything. I only need to open the books now to find a quote instead of paraphrasing it. I'm guessing many people here are in the same boat, as well.

I'm still standing by the "Tavore is aloof to hide her ignorance" theory. Wouldn't that be so ironic, to have her lead her army all this way and through so much on little hints and scraps of knowledge, only to be totally out of her league and waste all their lives for naught. Tavore is fueled by a vague prophecy or two from T'Amber, stubbornness, and little else.

Erayle, on 22 September 2010 - 11:07 PM, said:

Wait, what? So you're saying Draconus used Burn's Hammer to forge Dragnipur?
I'd always assumed it was because it was the only other weapon capable of destroying it...

Draconus talks about using Burn's hammer to forge the chains of dragnipur. It's definitely that hammer that he used. Perhaps "chains and chains, chains to bind, etc etc" will jar your memory. Although, now that I think on it, I'm not sure he explicitly said he used burn's hammer to forge the sword itself. Especially since he was forging it "since the time of all-darkness", I had always assumed that either that preceded burn/wu or that draconus hadn't left kurald galain yet.

This post has been edited by iRFNA: 23 September 2010 - 12:31 AM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Salt-Man Z, on 22 September 2010 - 08:23 PM, said:

darkul, on 22 September 2010 - 10:07 AM, said:

And why should [Withal] be the only one able to destroy it? Are we with Tolkien here (can only be destroyed where it was forged, in this case by whom it was forged, and all is good again)? I doubt it.

But...isn't that exactly what Withal did? And besides that, isn't that the reason it took Burn's Hammer to break Dragnipur in TtH?

My take on the Withal thing. He's not the only one that could have broken the Crippled God's sword. But he did say an aspected weapon must be broken in the forge where it was made. And since he's the one who made it, he's the only one that knew where it was forged, and could take it back. That's why Tavore needed him.

[Sinisdar Toste]

iRFNA, on 23 September 2010 - 12:16 AM, said:

darkul, on 22 September 2010 - 10:07 AM, said:

So I have a questions to all the parttakers here:
Do you make notes, lists, gather details in an excel sheet and such to know so much or do you just recollect all of those details you mention out of your mind?
Sure, there is the wiki for that, but that is by far not complete. Is anyone of you also working in that wiki-project?

Last evening I wanted to start with a list. After the first 40 pages of GotM I came to realize that it would take years to collect all those fine filaments scattered over kilograms of words.
I mean, how can one remember after 8000 pages where someone mentioned what is where in the book, which detail makes someone being this or that, knowing, guessing, revealing some secret in some coded phrase or sentence?
Yes, there is the possibility using digital search, but that is not the Holy Grail.

The conclusion was: Lad, read it several times and you'll find out or find new things that make you wonder/ponder. Is that it easy?

Ya, I've read the books multiple times and sorta memorized most everything. I only need to open the books now to find a quote instead of paraphrasing it. I'm guessing many people here are in the same boat, as well.

I'm still standing by the "Tavore is aloof to hide her ignorance" theory. Wouldn't that be so ironic, to have her lead her army all this way and through so much on little hints and scraps of knowledge, only to be totally out of her league and waste all their lives for naught. Tavore is fueled by a vague prophecy or two from T'Amber, stubbornness, and little else.

Erayle, on 22 September 2010 - 11:07 PM, said:

Wait, what? So you're saying Draconus used Burn's Hammer to forge Dragnipur?
I'd always assumed it was because it was the only other weapon capable of destroying it...

Draconus talks about using Burn's hammer to forge the chains of dragnipur. It's definitely that hammer that he used. Perhaps "chains and chains, chains to bind, etc etc" will jar your memory. Although, now that I think on it, I'm not sure he explicitly said he used burn's hammer to forge the sword itself. Especially since he was forging it "since the time of all-darkness", I had always assumed that either that preceded burn/wu or that draconus hadn't left kurald galain yet.

well remember, when dragnipur took the form of a sword, it had already existed for some time. in RCG prologue it's just a personal black hole or something. i think that making the sword a physical blade was it's 'final shaping' so to speak. a sealing of the ritual draconus had created into a permanent(not really) physical form that he could hold in his hand and whack things with.

point being, he could have used burns hammer. we don't know for sure how long it's been around either.

[iRFNA]

Sinisdar Toste, on 23 September 2010 - 04:00 AM, said:

well remember, when dragnipur took the form of a sword, it had already existed for some time. in RCG prologue it's just a personal black hole or something. i think that making the sword a physical blade was it's 'final shaping' so to speak. a sealing of the ritual draconus had created into a permanent(not really) physical form that he could hold in his hand and whack things with.

point being, he could have used burns hammer. we don't know for sure how long it's been around either.

Perhaps its form, before kallor's curse forced him to reconsider its function and permanency, was precisely the "sword" that he is wielding now. Instead of binding the gate of darkness inside a pocket warren with the wagon doomed to eventually become too heavy to pull, the sword is the gate. As it was before and was meant to be.

This post has been edited by iRFNA: 23 September 2010 - 04:46 AM

[Hetan]

Quote

After all, Dragnipur had never offered salvation. Iron forged to bind, a hundred thousand chains hammered into the blade, layers upon layers entwined, folded, wrapped like rope. Draconus, surrounded in the molten fires of Burn's heart, drawing forth chains of every metal that existed, drawing them out link by glowing link. Twisted ropes of metal on the anvil, and down came the hammer. The one hammer, the only tool that could forge such a weapon – and he remembered its vast weight, the scalding grip that lacerated his alien hand.
Even in her dreaming, Burn had been most displeased.
Chains upon chains. Chains to bind. Bind Darkness itself, transforming the ancient forest through which it had wandered, twisting that Blackwood into a wagon, into huge, tottering wheels, into a bed that formed a horizontal door – like the entrance to a barrow – above the portal. Blackwood, to hold and contain the soul of Kurald Galain.

Quote

'She sensed the sickness coming, sinking claws into her. Sensed . . .and chose to sleep. Less than two thousand years ago, she chose to sleep. She sought to escape the prison of her own flesh, in order to do battle with the one who was killing that flesh. She – oh gods above and below! She made of herself a weapon! Her entire spirit, all its power, into a single forging . . . a hammer, a hammer capable of breaking . . . breaking anything. And Burn then found a man to wield it . . . Caladan Brood.'

The timeline is not important, the timeline is not important....

[Abyss]

Hetan, on 23 September 2010 - 05:43 AM, said:

Quote

After all, Dragnipur had never offered salvation. Iron forged to bind, a hundred thousand chains hammered into the blade, layers upon layers entwined, folded, wrapped like rope. Draconus, surrounded in the molten fires of Burn's heart, drawing forth chains of every metal that existed, drawing them out link by glowing link. Twisted ropes of metal on the anvil, and down came the hammer. The one hammer, the only tool that could forge such a weapon – and he remembered its vast weight, the scalding grip that lacerated his alien hand.
Even in her dreaming, Burn had been most displeased.
Chains upon chains. Chains to bind. Bind Darkness itself, transforming the ancient forest through which it had wandered, twisting that Blackwood into a wagon, into huge, tottering wheels, into a bed that formed a horizontal door – like the entrance to a barrow – above the portal. Blackwood, to hold and contain the soul of Kurald Galain.

Quote

'She sensed the sickness coming, sinking claws into her. Sensed . . .and chose to sleep. Less than two thousand years ago, she chose to sleep. She sought to escape the prison of her own flesh, in order to do battle with the one who was killing that flesh. She – oh gods above and below! She made of herself a weapon! Her entire spirit, all its power, into a single forging . . . a hammer, a hammer capable of breaking . . . breaking anything. And Burn then found a man to wield it . . . Caladan Brood.'

The timeline is not important, the timeline is not important....

It doesn't have to be the same hammer. Or the same hammer could have been refined/retasked/reforged. After all it seems Dragnipur wasn't originally created to cart around Mommy D.

[Theotendo]

It probably was the same hammer.Draconus mentioned modifying his sword ("forged since the time of all darkness" - or some such) after the Crippled God had been brought down.She fashioned the hammer after he had been chained to her flesh.When Brood was guided to the hammer is an unknown.

I cherish the timeline deeply.

[KingTeholBeddict]

Hetan, on 22 September 2010 - 11:56 AM, said:

Gothos, on 22 September 2010 - 10:27 AM, said:

Could someone pull off some Quote Fu about Kolanse being inaccesible from the sea?

Of course it's not inacessible from the sea - it's a continent.

"Oh they're not gong to the Wastelands, my Queen, they're gong to Kolanse. They're just passing through the Wastelands since they no longer have the the transports to get to Kolanse by sea. Nor have we the ships to accommodate them alas" - Tehol (DoD)

But what about the Perish Thrones of War, couldn't they have met up with the Malazans there?
Also, if Tavore knew that she had to get to Kolanse, why did she burn the transports?

Mind you, I'm for the theory that Tavore knew they had to get to Kolanse, but it just doesn't make sense...

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Hetan, on 23 September 2010 - 05:43 AM, said:

Quote

After all, Dragnipur had never offered salvation. Iron forged to bind, a hundred thousand chains hammered into the blade, layers upon layers entwined, folded, wrapped like rope. Draconus, surrounded in the molten fires of Burn's heart, drawing forth chains of every metal that existed, drawing them out link by glowing link. Twisted ropes of metal on the anvil, and down came the hammer. The one hammer, the only tool that could forge such a weapon – and he remembered its vast weight, the scalding grip that lacerated his alien hand.
Even in her dreaming, Burn had been most displeased.
Chains upon chains. Chains to bind. Bind Darkness itself, transforming the ancient forest through which it had wandered, twisting that Blackwood into a wagon, into huge, tottering wheels, into a bed that formed a horizontal door – like the entrance to a barrow – above the portal. Blackwood, to hold and contain the soul of Kurald Galain.

Quote

'She sensed the sickness coming, sinking claws into her. Sensed . . .and chose to sleep. Less than two thousand years ago, she chose to sleep. She sought to escape the prison of her own flesh, in order to do battle with the one who was killing that flesh. She – oh gods above and below! She made of herself a weapon! Her entire spirit, all its power, into a single forging . . . a hammer, a hammer capable of breaking . . . breaking anything. And Burn then found a man to wield it . . . Caladan Brood.'

The timeline is not important, the timeline is not important....

the way I took it. Brood was the guy Burn sanctioned to carry the hammer. However Draconus, being an incredibly powerful being, could take it without giving Burn a damn but she was not pleased thus the hammer burning his hands as he worked.