[Asmodeus de'Yaksha]

There's one thing that bothers me, from a military/strategic POV. Perhaps this has ben adressed in the books and I just missed it but....

Why did the Bonehunters invade Lether? The obvious answer is to topple the oppressive Edur regime that was controlled/influenced by the Crippled God. Liberation is a good and noble casue and I can agree with that. But it seems like an unecessary detour. All things point to that the main action is in Kolanse. That's where the heart of the CG lies, that is where the FA prepare... whatever they do. Why bother with Lether? Why land there, destroy the transports, waste valuable time fighting the Letherii troops and then march all the way to Kolanse? Why not go directly to Kolanse by boat, and just skip Lether and the march through the Wastelands. Sure, it's nice to liberate a people, but we're talking about stopping the end of the world. Surely haste is a good thing?

And again, let's say that there was a reason that Lether had to be liberated first. Why march through the Wastelands? Why not go to Kolanse by boat (I know they burned the transports, but hire or commision new ones)?

I hope there will be at least some reason given in the upcoming book why they had to do what they did because from a military POV I can't make any sense whatsoever of it.

This post has been edited by Asmodeus de'Yaksha: 25 August 2010 - 08:26 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

A few quick reasons:

Tavore had to get to Rhulad and destroy his sword. That was why they detoured to Malaz Isle in The Bonehunters as well, so that they could pick up Withal (who could destroy it at the forge he built it, a foreshadowing of Dragnipur's destruction in TtH, too). In doing so, the Bonehunters had to fight the Edur, who controlled Lether.

A weak justification for this invasion was the destruction of a Malazan protectorate in the Sepik (?) Island.

The Edur were rowing around slaughtering innocents so that they could find challengers for Rhulad, and well that's going to piss some people off.

There is no natural entrance to Kolanse from the sea, as the Bolkando Princess and her aide realize in Dust, thus it had to be through land. Leaving an unfriendly Lether at their backs would have been tactical folly by the Malazan forces, as the Crippled God has no idea of what their purpose is in marching towards Kolanse.

Tavore wasn't sure as to where exactly she had to go, so she got a staging ground in Lether for the eventual invasion that will provide supplies and intelligence.

[Baudinsballs]

I think it was mentioned that they went to Lether to kick ass they wanted revenge for the invasion of their empire and the slaughter of its people. Then at some point between RG and DOD Tavore decides that they need to go to free the CG.

[Asmodeus de'Yaksha]

 H.D., on 25 August 2010 - 08:32 PM, said:

A few quick reasons:

Tavore had to get to Rhulad and destroy his sword. That was why they detoured to Malaz Isle in The Bonehunters as well, so that they could pick up Withal (who could destroy it at the forge he built it, a foreshadowing of Dragnipur's destruction in TtH, too). In doing so, the Bonehunters had to fight the Edur, who controlled Lether.

A weak justification for this invasion was the destruction of a Malazan protectorate in the Sepik (?) Island.

The Edur were rowing around slaughtering innocents so that they could find challengers for Rhulad, and well that's going to piss some people off.

There is no natural entrance to Kolanse from the sea, as the Bolkando Princess and her aide realize in Dust, thus it had to be through land. Leaving an unfriendly Lether at their backs would have been tactical folly by the Malazan forces, as the Crippled God has no idea of what their purpose is in marching towards Kolanse.

Tavore wasn't sure as to where exactly she had to go, so she got a staging ground in Lether for the eventual invasion that will provide supplies and intelligence.

The first three I think are not enough. The slaughter of innocents are of course horrible, but again. We're talking the end of the world. So gettiing to Kolanse should take priority even over that. The same with destroying the sword. Was it absolutely necessary?

Finding intelligence about Kolanse in Lether didn't go so well since basically all people had to say was that no one knows what's going on and that no one had heard from Kolanse in the last 5 years. However I agree that Tavore couldn't have know that the intelligence situation would be that bad.

No entrance to Kolanse from the sea (not even a paltry sea town that could be invaded?) - that I can buy. I missed that in DoD. If that is the case the campaign against Lether makes sense as well as the detour to pick up Withal. If they had to invade Lether then Rhulad and the sword had to be dealt with and Withal was essential for that.

This post has been edited by Asmodeus de'Yaksha: 25 August 2010 - 08:41 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

Who told Tavore about Rhulad's sword?

[HoosierDaddy]

She obviously knew prior to returning to Malaz City, so it would have had to have been T'amber, right?

[champ]

they knew the craic with the Edur and Rhulad/Rhulad's Sword - T'amber will of given them the low down.

the whole plan was to liberate the Lether people, which was only stage 1 of the gambit, once liberated they could rely on the gracious new rulers to supply the army in the long march to kolanse, without the lether aide nothing would of been possible

[Asmodeus de'Yaksha]

 champooon, on 25 August 2010 - 08:46 PM, said:

the whole plan was to liberate the Lether people, which was only stage 1 of the gambit, once liberated they could rely on the gracious new rulers to supply the army in the long march to kolanse, without the lether aide nothing would of been possible

Makes sense - IF it is impossible to land on Kolanse from the sea. Otherwise I still think it was a waste of time and troops to take on Lether. But if the only way to Kolanse is by land through Lether and the Wastelands then of course Rhulad & the Edur had to be dealt with.

This post has been edited by Asmodeus de'Yaksha: 25 August 2010 - 08:51 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

 H.D., on 25 August 2010 - 08:45 PM, said:

She obviously knew prior to returning to Malaz City, so it would have had to have been T'amber, right?

Why do you say this? I'm going under the assumption that this Tavore-knew-about-Rhulad's-sword stuff is all a theory, because I don't recall anything in the text about it.

I read the visit to Malaz City in BH as occurring because the Bonehunters were coming home from Seven Cities, and Tavore needed to report to Laseen. After the meeting with Laseen/Rel/Dom, Tavore decides to head out on her own and take her army with her. An army needs something to do, so the mission becomes hitting back at the Edur invasion, which culminates in the assault on Lether. Withal's involvement seemed coincidental at best. Of course, in light of DoD, all this may just be a pretense for getting to Kolanse.

But I don't buy it about the sword until someone pulls some strong quote-fu.

[champ]

 Salt-Man Z, on 25 August 2010 - 09:00 PM, said:

 H.D., on 25 August 2010 - 08:45 PM, said:

She obviously knew prior to returning to Malaz City, so it would have had to have been T'amber, right?

Why do you say this? I'm going under the assumption that this Tavore-knew-about-Rhulad's-sword stuff is all a theory, because I don't recall anything in the text about it.

I read the visit to Malaz City in BH as occurring because the Bonehunters were coming home from Seven Cities, and Tavore needed to report to Laseen. After the meeting with Laseen/Rel/Dom, Tavore decides to head out on her own and take her army with her. An army needs something to do, so the mission becomes hitting back at the Edur invasion, which culminates in the assault on Lether. Withal's involvement seemed coincidental at best. Of course, in light of DoD, all this may just be a pretense for getting to Kolanse.

But I don't buy it about the sword until someone pulls some strong quote-fu.

There is a quote out there that i can remember, it's from one of the mages, probably QB, saying that "they've got to pick someone up" in Malaz, don't have the book to hand though to go through...

[HoosierDaddy]

Ask and ye shall receive:

Reaper's Gale 440, emphasis placed by the book:

Quote

"Beside the First stood Withal, the Meckros blacksmith - the man we went to Malaz City to get, and we still don't know why."

[champ]

nicely done, theres also this from the BH - this from Fiddler

Quote

"Bottle - we have failed, Sergeant. He was to retrieve someone."
"Someone? Who?"
"It doesnt matter, now. We have failed."
All of his? All of the fallen this night - for one person?

then Bottle turns up with Withal and his brood led by Grub...

edit:

format

This post has been edited by champooon: 25 August 2010 - 10:36 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

Thanks for that. But is that all there is? We can make deductions from there, I guess: they needed to bring Withal, and why else would he be needed but to break the sword he forged? So it addresses the question without really answering it, I guess. I wonder if TCG will explicitly tackle this? I suppose it must, if there's to be any explanation given for the Eres'al...

[HoosierDaddy]

 Salt-Man Z, on 25 August 2010 - 09:38 PM, said:

Thanks for that. But is that all there is? We can make deductions from there, I guess: they needed to bring Withal, and why else would he be needed but to break the sword he forged? So it addresses the question without really answering it, I guess. I wonder if TCG will explicitly tackle this? I suppose it must, if there's to be any explanation given for the Eres'al...

T'amber isn't the only suspect, although she is the most obvious. There is a section in RG where Keneb is musing on how the 14th suddenly received all its gold, and that was because Grub knew that Banaschar had raided all of Drek's coffers. So, it might have been a cryptic warning from Grub as opposed to T'amber through the Eres'al. However, the Eres' association with the Edur (through the Nerek and Trull) could be another clue as to who told Tavore.

There is another section that talks about how the Adjunct's strategy sessions were strictly with the Tiste Andii and Withal, prior to the invasion. This seems to me an obvious intelligence gathering session about the Edur, right? But, what knowledge does Withal possess about the Edur other than the sword wielded by Rhulad?

This post has been edited by H.D.: 25 August 2010 - 09:43 PM

[Ulrik]

Well, most important reason (from many!) is IMO overthrowing Edur. Why? Well, few million people controlled by CG with powerful magicians corrupted by chaos powers, access to KE...it is really strong argument. You cant wander thru continent with CG´s army at back. 

And for Withal - I believe that T´Amber saw him as important not only for "sword case" but also for delivering him, as backbone, for new Queen of Dark... Without him, she wouldnt make it.

[iRFNA]

Maybe Tavore's seeming omniscience is an illusion. She actually has no damn idea what she is doing or what is going on beyond a few random factoids that she rarely tosses out to seem like she knows everything. And if anyone says something to her she doesn't know, she pretends like she already knew. She's really just blundering around but smart enough to stay quiet about it!

[worry]

Nah. Only someone who knows the truth could be so truly miserable over it.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 25 August 2010 - 11:36 PM

[darkul]

Hi guys, new one here. Greets

I'm not able to prove it but I think Withal was a very competent man when it comes to the CG.
He was close to him, I guess for not only a few days, he was some kind of servant and at first did whatever tasks he was forced/asked to take care of.

It was not his single deed to forge this ominous sword. And why should he be the only one able to destroy it?
Are we with Tolkien here (can only be destroyed where it was forged, in this case by whom it was forged, and all is good again)? I doubt it.

No, Withal was necessary as being a source of intelligence, could give proof of events, analyses how/who/where the CG is/could be. Maybe from him Tavore has so much knowledge after all. Somehow a very big piece of a puzzle.

To invade Lether was necessary for so many reasons but I'll not go into detail here.
But of course finding and destroying the wielder/the sword was of immense scope. This was a keypoint, almost a milestone to know more about the CG and what his intensions could be.


And just another addition:
I've read many threads now in this DoD forum, but somehow Karsa Orlong as a possible foe/friend to the CG/Malazans/Gods/EG is forgotten?
In my eyes he is the most powerful of all characters in the whole plot, withstanding gods and magical assaults. He was the one to indirectly win over the CG in the first place, being the one to deny the sword.
And he is off now to gather his army, to ... destroy the world .. am I right?
After all he has seen and experienced this is his viewpoint also after DoD, where he is not really mentioned (I think one time).


Don't hit me. I've read every book of the series just once so far. Recently finished DoD, now starting all over again.
Really worth reading more than two times, just as with Gene Wolfes Sun-Books

So I have a questions to all the parttakers here:
Do you make notes, lists, gather details in an excel sheet and such to know so much or do you just recollect all of those details you mention out of your mind?
Sure, there is the wiki for that, but that is by far not complete. Is anyone of you also working in that wiki-project?

Last evening I wanted to start with a list. After the first 40 pages of GotM I came to realize that it would take years to collect all those fine filaments scattered over kilograms of words.
I mean, how can one remember after 8000 pages where someone mentioned what is where in the book, which detail makes someone being this or that, knowing, guessing, revealing some secret in some coded phrase or sentence?
Yes, there is the possibility using digital search, but that is not the Holy Grail.

The conclusion was: Lad, read it several times and you'll find out or find new things that make you wonder/ponder. Is that it easy?

This post has been edited by darkul: 22 September 2010 - 10:13 AM

[Gothos]

Could someone pull off some Quote Fu about Kolanse being inaccesible from the sea?

[Hetan]

 Gothos, on 22 September 2010 - 10:27 AM, said:

Could someone pull off some Quote Fu about Kolanse being inaccesible from the sea?

Of course it's not inacessible from the sea - it's a continent.

"Oh they're not gong to the Wastelands, my Queen, they're gong to Kolanse. They're just passing through the Wastelands since they no longer have the the transports to get to Kolanse by sea. Nor have we the ships to accommodate them alas" - Tehol (DoD)