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The same quote applies - the Holds are a more primitive form of the Houses generally ruled by a god or ascendant and are aspected - ie. Life, Death etc.
aspected realms, holds and warrens an incomplete history of the arrival of aspected realms
#22
random marine doomed to die 
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Posted 11 September 2010 - 03:20 PM
I am sorry if this sounds mean.
Stop asking other people to tell you what these things are.
Read more(read again if you have to).
SE (and ICE) have left so much open for YOU to interpret...
imho that is why so many people on these boards like this world (Wu) so much
Stop asking other people to tell you what these things are.
Read more(read again if you have to).
SE (and ICE) have left so much open for YOU to interpret...
imho that is why so many people on these boards like this world (Wu) so much
#23
haroos
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Posted 11 September 2010 - 04:00 PM
random marine doomed to die, on 11 September 2010 - 03:20 PM, said:
I am sorry if this sounds mean.
Stop asking other people to tell you what these things are.
Read more(read again if you have to).
SE (and ICE) have left so much open for YOU to interpret...
imho that is why so many people on these boards like this world (Wu) so much
Stop asking other people to tell you what these things are.
Read more(read again if you have to).
SE (and ICE) have left so much open for YOU to interpret...
imho that is why so many people on these boards like this world (Wu) so much
i agree, let's also cancel the forums, why talk about the books ?
or about anything at all ?
#24
Hetan
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Posted 12 September 2010 - 08:04 AM
Just a small point here I noticed Amphibian posted this :-
and just wanted to add that we know her aspect - Cotillion mentions it in BH - it's Thyr - an aspect which she shares with Eloth. Likewise he mentions that there is an aspected dragon for each warren.
As for the posts above ^ - it's what these forums are all about after all - to seek clarification if possible.
Quote
There may or may not be a dragon aspected with each element/warren/hold. We've seen the otataral dragon, seen Serc's corpse nailed to a crucifix and seen chained dragons who once contended for dominance over Shadow. However, Silanah doesn't seem to have a particular aspect.
and just wanted to add that we know her aspect - Cotillion mentions it in BH - it's Thyr - an aspect which she shares with Eloth. Likewise he mentions that there is an aspected dragon for each warren.
Quote
The female dragon spoke, “I am Eloth, Mistress of Illusions -- Meanas to you -- and Mockra and Thyr. A Shaper of the Blood. All that K’rul asked of me, I have done. And now you presume to question my loyalty?”
“Ah,” Cotillion said, nodding, “then I take it you are aware of the impending war. Are you also aware of the rumours of K’rul’s return?”
“His blood is growing sickly,” said the third dragon. “I am Ampelas, who shaped the Blood in the paths of Emurlahn. The sorcery wielded by the Tiste Edur was born of my will -- do you now understand, Usurper?”
“That dragons are prone to grandiose claims and sententiousness? Yes, I do indeed understand, Ampelas. And I should now presume that for each of the warrens, elder and new, there is a corresponding dragon? You are the flavors of K’rul’s blood? - (BH UK Tpb p.51)
“Ah,” Cotillion said, nodding, “then I take it you are aware of the impending war. Are you also aware of the rumours of K’rul’s return?”
“His blood is growing sickly,” said the third dragon. “I am Ampelas, who shaped the Blood in the paths of Emurlahn. The sorcery wielded by the Tiste Edur was born of my will -- do you now understand, Usurper?”
“That dragons are prone to grandiose claims and sententiousness? Yes, I do indeed understand, Ampelas. And I should now presume that for each of the warrens, elder and new, there is a corresponding dragon? You are the flavors of K’rul’s blood? - (BH UK Tpb p.51)
As for the posts above ^ - it's what these forums are all about after all - to seek clarification if possible.
"He was not a modest man. Contemplating suicide, he summoned a dragon". (Gothos' Folly)- Gothos
#26
Sinisdar Toste
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Posted 24 September 2010 - 04:13 PM
well she's a candidate thats for sure
i'm not sure that i believe it though
i'm not sure that i believe it though
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
- Oscar Levant
- Oscar Levant
#27
Hetan
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#28
High King of Chaos
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Posted 07 November 2010 - 03:47 AM
hiy Hetan thanx for your response i feel i must oppoligise for what must have appeared as random ramblings, also i must oppologise for my terrible spellings grammer and such i was kicked from school at 14 i rarely went to school so i just dont know how to write the questions i wanted to ask correctly and so i really do appreciate you making what must be a brutal effort to make sence of my post.
I cant explain how appreciative i am as i rly do love these books and this is the only chance i get to discuss them.
u see i hadnt been reading the series much at the time that i made that post and i really should of took more time making it clearer what it was i was trying to figure out. I was confused at the time on how the evolution of warrens and especially how the world of wu came about due to something that confused me immensly, which is the travelling in warrens by those able to harness such powers.
While heboric, Felisin Kulp, Baudin, Stormy, Truth, and Gesler was trapped in the nasscent, Kulp couldnt return, via his warren back to his wu, Whilset contemplating this dilemma what began to confused me was the placing (if u like) of wu in the order of warrens and realms or rather its relation with them, it struck me that Wu seemed to be sort of the odd one out. You see i was picturing each warren as a seperate entity, realm, whatever you wish to call it, with its own bounderies, and this is the notion which i had trouble putting into sence. I couldnt understand why kulp could return from his warren back to the nasscent after entering it from the Nacsent, as well as being able to return to Wu from said warren after entering the warren from Wu and moving x amount of distance away from his point of entry. So i just couldt understand why he couldnt make a gateway back to Wu after entering his warren from the nasscent, Do you see my point ? why cant he return to Wu via the nascent when he could theoretically return to Wu from the same place he could be stood at if he had entered that warren from Wu and walking away from his point of entry and arrived at this point which he was placed where he couldnt return to Wu. Now i know there was implications involved with making a gateway large enough for the boat to fit through but when reading that part of the story that wasnt the initial problem the problem was that JKulp couldnt gain access to Wu via his warren. So when i started wondering why this was it made me think about Wu itself and how it appeared to be differant from other warrens, not in the way every warren has its own identity but another way, something just didnt seem to fit or rather Wu seemed to stand out as being some tye of anomoly, this train of thought lead me to start trying to piece together the history of warrens, there nature there history there flavour.
Ive since realised that use or entering warrens and gates can have, more often than not, complex rules . In many cases those accessing or entering warrens seem to be using an existing entry more often than not (especially in cases of it being a large gate or a gateway from ancient warren) created by something older more powerfull. Another instance is something can happen which can draw the attention or make a conection with elements of a warrens nature, the reading of a deck of dragons say or praying to a God, conducting a riitual or maybee touching the blood of a dragon perhaps (hmm interesting thought) it seems that the more populated a place or the more history a place has of gathering of indiginouse peoples the easier it is to enter/access a warren, and there are cases where there are "deserts" and no warren can be accessed/entered like Lethar due to the ritual of gothos. This indicates what i have now come to realise about it all being layered - like an onion, layer ontop of layers. I find the thought on traveling in a warren in so that a person can make a journey from lets say the continent of seven cities to lets say genebackis confusing but, i can understand certain things like when in a warren say meanas/thyr/rasham for example a mage could twist the shaodows to alter distance to his beneifit and shorten the distance he is striding to travel, but with this notion of warren travelling what confuses me is how do u know your not going to find yourself 300 feet in the air or 50 feet under solid rock upon entering a warren.
After hours of contemplating this notion of travelling by means of using the warrens this is the theory i thought might explain a few things
As u pointed out I know that K'rull (with the aid of others) made the warrens and before that there was chaos but was wu around before K'rull made the warrens ? if it was was it within chaos or seperate? is wu part of the existance that is the board on which warrens, elder and newer, are the pices which move upon the board ?
Burn complicates things a lot when thinking about the evolution of wu or its relation to the warrens as well as, i think, the bringing down of the crippled god. The Bringing down of the crippled God has lead me to a theory, that all of the warrens which arose from chaos are an entirely seperate entity to the realm of reality that has the laws of the stellar sytem (the universe as we know of without magic and holds and the like) and this universe is some type of host plane that the warrens over lap in there multitudes, and so it could well be possible that when the crippled god was dragged from one of those overlapping realms onto the world of Wu which was on the "host" plane that Wu was so severely damaged that the only meens for its future existance was that wu had to be seperated from that host realm with its laws of physics kind of taking it out of the game so that it can heal within a new existance with new rules of physics. If Wu was once a part of some other existance this would explain why Wu appears to be some type of anomoly within the realms, and thus explain why travel to it via other warrens seems to be difficult.
To cut it short Hetan i would like to hear your thoughts on the evolution of the subjects ive been speaking about, your quotes and facts are great insights but what im really interested in is hearing your interpretation on these events, maybee your understanding of the details on these subjects is much cleaer than mine (but given how deliberatly obscure Erikson is on such matters i knid of doubt it because if anything if understand his provided information clearer its likely lead you to a lot more questions, as is the way - lol, never the les i would still like to hear your own theory upon interpriting this matter.
I cant explain how appreciative i am as i rly do love these books and this is the only chance i get to discuss them.
u see i hadnt been reading the series much at the time that i made that post and i really should of took more time making it clearer what it was i was trying to figure out. I was confused at the time on how the evolution of warrens and especially how the world of wu came about due to something that confused me immensly, which is the travelling in warrens by those able to harness such powers.
While heboric, Felisin Kulp, Baudin, Stormy, Truth, and Gesler was trapped in the nasscent, Kulp couldnt return, via his warren back to his wu, Whilset contemplating this dilemma what began to confused me was the placing (if u like) of wu in the order of warrens and realms or rather its relation with them, it struck me that Wu seemed to be sort of the odd one out. You see i was picturing each warren as a seperate entity, realm, whatever you wish to call it, with its own bounderies, and this is the notion which i had trouble putting into sence. I couldnt understand why kulp could return from his warren back to the nasscent after entering it from the Nacsent, as well as being able to return to Wu from said warren after entering the warren from Wu and moving x amount of distance away from his point of entry. So i just couldt understand why he couldnt make a gateway back to Wu after entering his warren from the nasscent, Do you see my point ? why cant he return to Wu via the nascent when he could theoretically return to Wu from the same place he could be stood at if he had entered that warren from Wu and walking away from his point of entry and arrived at this point which he was placed where he couldnt return to Wu. Now i know there was implications involved with making a gateway large enough for the boat to fit through but when reading that part of the story that wasnt the initial problem the problem was that JKulp couldnt gain access to Wu via his warren. So when i started wondering why this was it made me think about Wu itself and how it appeared to be differant from other warrens, not in the way every warren has its own identity but another way, something just didnt seem to fit or rather Wu seemed to stand out as being some tye of anomoly, this train of thought lead me to start trying to piece together the history of warrens, there nature there history there flavour.
Ive since realised that use or entering warrens and gates can have, more often than not, complex rules . In many cases those accessing or entering warrens seem to be using an existing entry more often than not (especially in cases of it being a large gate or a gateway from ancient warren) created by something older more powerfull. Another instance is something can happen which can draw the attention or make a conection with elements of a warrens nature, the reading of a deck of dragons say or praying to a God, conducting a riitual or maybee touching the blood of a dragon perhaps (hmm interesting thought) it seems that the more populated a place or the more history a place has of gathering of indiginouse peoples the easier it is to enter/access a warren, and there are cases where there are "deserts" and no warren can be accessed/entered like Lethar due to the ritual of gothos. This indicates what i have now come to realise about it all being layered - like an onion, layer ontop of layers. I find the thought on traveling in a warren in so that a person can make a journey from lets say the continent of seven cities to lets say genebackis confusing but, i can understand certain things like when in a warren say meanas/thyr/rasham for example a mage could twist the shaodows to alter distance to his beneifit and shorten the distance he is striding to travel, but with this notion of warren travelling what confuses me is how do u know your not going to find yourself 300 feet in the air or 50 feet under solid rock upon entering a warren.
After hours of contemplating this notion of travelling by means of using the warrens this is the theory i thought might explain a few things
As u pointed out I know that K'rull (with the aid of others) made the warrens and before that there was chaos but was wu around before K'rull made the warrens ? if it was was it within chaos or seperate? is wu part of the existance that is the board on which warrens, elder and newer, are the pices which move upon the board ?
Burn complicates things a lot when thinking about the evolution of wu or its relation to the warrens as well as, i think, the bringing down of the crippled god. The Bringing down of the crippled God has lead me to a theory, that all of the warrens which arose from chaos are an entirely seperate entity to the realm of reality that has the laws of the stellar sytem (the universe as we know of without magic and holds and the like) and this universe is some type of host plane that the warrens over lap in there multitudes, and so it could well be possible that when the crippled god was dragged from one of those overlapping realms onto the world of Wu which was on the "host" plane that Wu was so severely damaged that the only meens for its future existance was that wu had to be seperated from that host realm with its laws of physics kind of taking it out of the game so that it can heal within a new existance with new rules of physics. If Wu was once a part of some other existance this would explain why Wu appears to be some type of anomoly within the realms, and thus explain why travel to it via other warrens seems to be difficult.
To cut it short Hetan i would like to hear your thoughts on the evolution of the subjects ive been speaking about, your quotes and facts are great insights but what im really interested in is hearing your interpretation on these events, maybee your understanding of the details on these subjects is much cleaer than mine (but given how deliberatly obscure Erikson is on such matters i knid of doubt it because if anything if understand his provided information clearer its likely lead you to a lot more questions, as is the way - lol, never the les i would still like to hear your own theory upon interpriting this matter.
This post has been edited by High King of Chaos: 13 November 2010 - 04:43 PM
#29
Hetan
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Posted 14 November 2010 - 03:38 PM
You appear to be overthinking here.
Wu is name of the physical realm or plane, if you like, of Erikson's world and the warrens are aspects/elements/forces which can exist on any physical realm, such as that of the homeworlds of the Tiste Andi, Edur etc should conditions allow. Wu is not a warren in and of itself in this context.
In Kulp's case conditions did not allow because a) he didn't enter the warren of his own accord but was pushed into it by the mad mage from otataral island and
the warren of Meanas doesn't have any water -
- therefore he couldn't use his warren to get them out and neither was he strong enough to take a whole ship through the warren.
High Mage's can manipulate the rules, but Kulp isn't a high mage.
Wu is name of the physical realm or plane, if you like, of Erikson's world and the warrens are aspects/elements/forces which can exist on any physical realm, such as that of the homeworlds of the Tiste Andi, Edur etc should conditions allow. Wu is not a warren in and of itself in this context.
In Kulp's case conditions did not allow because a) he didn't enter the warren of his own accord but was pushed into it by the mad mage from otataral island and
the warren of Meanas doesn't have any water - Quote
But not Meanas. No seas, no rivers, not even a Hood-damned puddle.
Quote
The primordial elements asserted an intractable consistency across all warrens. Land to land, air to air, water to water.
- therefore he couldn't use his warren to get them out and neither was he strong enough to take a whole ship through the warren.
High Mage's can manipulate the rules, but Kulp isn't a high mage.
"He was not a modest man. Contemplating suicide, he summoned a dragon". (Gothos' Folly)- Gothos
#30
SkunkMonk
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Posted 18 November 2010 - 02:13 PM
High Mage's can manipulate the rules, but Kulp isn't a high mage.
[/quote]
yes i certainly agree with that a good example would be the nathi slavemaster when coming on board the boat of karsa and one of the nom's of dharujistan he said soemthing along the lines of theres a portal which was used not too long ago (im assuming it was the one made by the t'lan imass that came aboard the silanah) but i dont have the power to use it
im sure your right in that im other thinking here but Erikson seems to bring that out in me as im sure he does in others the series are great ive yet in my decade of reading fantasy come across any author which can entertain me on so many differant lvls, thanx foir the reply Hetan loking forward to some more discussions with you,
have you read the Stonwiielder yet or the Korbal Broach and Bauchelain book, im not in possession of the ICE book yet but from the read ups from a guy who uses this forum on a site which shows the cover art it sounds like this one should be a lot better than his last (which i enjouyed - although was dissapointed by some story lines, but ive found this with Eriksons books also, wasnt too keen on MT although obviously loved tehol, bug, ublala, the rat catchers guild, hejun rissah and shand, harlest (he perticularly made me laugh with his bizare anticts and shurq elalle but the edur bored me same again with the RG loved the parts with the BH and the names mentioned above, also found the sotory with clip kettle silchas fear and co dross which only got worse when he joined with the spawn of rake (these stories had there moments i agree but for the large part didnt do it for me) but i must say im really looking forward to the last installment
heres a question for yu hetan - I dont think there will be enough room in the book to tie up some of the story lines Karsa's story is far from doen for example and there are others too which deserve the pages needed to cover them so how do you think some of these stories will be finished it doesnt seem like they will be done by ICE as his books although having some events or charecters having contact its been minor up till now and i cant see that changing ( had to say though when we dont no for sure who inveented which charecters i guess) and we know that this series wont be any more than the ten books, ive heard that Erikson is planning on doing two 3 book series after this series so maybee one of those series would cover karsa's future story- What are y9ur thoughts or known knoledge about any of this can you think of any other stories which you think need to be told but cant picture them being able to be told in the final book, as i see it the story with the bonehunters and there confrontation with the crippled god in whatever means as well as the shakes story in galain and Tool, Toc Hetans children and the closing of hoods realm will dominate so it doesnt appear to leave room for much else
[/quote]
yes i certainly agree with that a good example would be the nathi slavemaster when coming on board the boat of karsa and one of the nom's of dharujistan he said soemthing along the lines of theres a portal which was used not too long ago (im assuming it was the one made by the t'lan imass that came aboard the silanah) but i dont have the power to use it
im sure your right in that im other thinking here but Erikson seems to bring that out in me as im sure he does in others the series are great ive yet in my decade of reading fantasy come across any author which can entertain me on so many differant lvls, thanx foir the reply Hetan loking forward to some more discussions with you,
have you read the Stonwiielder yet or the Korbal Broach and Bauchelain book, im not in possession of the ICE book yet but from the read ups from a guy who uses this forum on a site which shows the cover art it sounds like this one should be a lot better than his last (which i enjouyed - although was dissapointed by some story lines, but ive found this with Eriksons books also, wasnt too keen on MT although obviously loved tehol, bug, ublala, the rat catchers guild, hejun rissah and shand, harlest (he perticularly made me laugh with his bizare anticts and shurq elalle but the edur bored me same again with the RG loved the parts with the BH and the names mentioned above, also found the sotory with clip kettle silchas fear and co dross which only got worse when he joined with the spawn of rake (these stories had there moments i agree but for the large part didnt do it for me) but i must say im really looking forward to the last installment
heres a question for yu hetan - I dont think there will be enough room in the book to tie up some of the story lines Karsa's story is far from doen for example and there are others too which deserve the pages needed to cover them so how do you think some of these stories will be finished it doesnt seem like they will be done by ICE as his books although having some events or charecters having contact its been minor up till now and i cant see that changing ( had to say though when we dont no for sure who inveented which charecters i guess) and we know that this series wont be any more than the ten books, ive heard that Erikson is planning on doing two 3 book series after this series so maybee one of those series would cover karsa's future story- What are y9ur thoughts or known knoledge about any of this can you think of any other stories which you think need to be told but cant picture them being able to be told in the final book, as i see it the story with the bonehunters and there confrontation with the crippled god in whatever means as well as the shakes story in galain and Tool, Toc Hetans children and the closing of hoods realm will dominate so it doesnt appear to leave room for much else
#33
Sinisdar Toste
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#35
amphibian
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Posted 19 November 2010 - 09:57 PM
SkunkMonk, some storylines will be resolved in The Crippled God (the convergence amongst the Bonehunters, T'lan, K'Chain, dragons, the Shake, elder gods, gods, Ublala Pung etc.). Others will not be (Karsa, the Tiste Andii, Kruppe, Caladan Brood, the actual Malazan Empire and perhaps Ganoes Paran/Silverfox).
Esslemont will take care of some of these storylines, while working on those of his own. Stonewielder will be released soon and after that will be a Darujhistan book, as well as a book about what's going on in the continent of Assail (which we've only heard about).
Erikson is planning a Tiste Andii prequel, as well as a series on the Toblakai. Karsa will perhaps overlap between Erikson and Esslemont, as he is in Darujhistan as of last sighting, awaiting his chance to continue breaking things.
Your enthusiasm for the books is apparent and welcome. Be a wee bit wary of letting it carry you away into throwing everything you love about the books into the post without organizing it in slightly easier to understand format. Keep at it, the books reward hard work.
Esslemont will take care of some of these storylines, while working on those of his own. Stonewielder will be released soon and after that will be a Darujhistan book, as well as a book about what's going on in the continent of Assail (which we've only heard about).
Erikson is planning a Tiste Andii prequel, as well as a series on the Toblakai. Karsa will perhaps overlap between Erikson and Esslemont, as he is in Darujhistan as of last sighting, awaiting his chance to continue breaking things.
Your enthusiasm for the books is apparent and welcome. Be a wee bit wary of letting it carry you away into throwing everything you love about the books into the post without organizing it in slightly easier to understand format. Keep at it, the books reward hard work.
I survived the Permian and all I got was this t-shirt.
