[High King of Chaos]

Ive read 9 of SE's MBotF 2 of SE's corbal broach and bauchelain and ICE's NoK and TRotCG and im sure u will all agree that both authors enjouy leaving a lot to the readers imagination, Its typical of both authors to make you put the pieces of the puzzle together for yourself and although i love this type of writting i find myself trying to piece together events so i can get a sence of timeline for both plots and charecters whearabouts during events of history. One piece of history id very mnuch like to be made clear and thats the detailed events on how the first gods (im not sure if the first gods are Elder Gods like Mael Sister of Cold Nights Draconuss K'rul or if they are Tiam or dragons themselves) i take it the first warren is Chaos and id like to know in detail how things moved along from the warren of chaos to todays warrens, This is how i understand it (plz feel free to correct any mistakes as i find this a most confusing course of events and so would welcome a detailed history)

What im trying to piece together is in when in the history of aspected realms gods accendants Elder Races Holds Houses and warrens did Earth arrive did it predeceed all else ? or was it a by product of something older. Is Earth within an aspected realm or is the realm of existance where u will find earth the birthing place for all other realms of exiistence. If it is the birthplace of all the aspected realms why hasnt it been coined with a name.

First there was Chaos, Dragons where alive at this time and we know they had there own aspected realm Starvald Demelain what isnt clear to me is were these dragons created within starvald demelain or did they used to fly around the universes differant planets, or who created the realm of stasrvald demelain. Ive heard it said that for every warren there is a dragon with the same aspect even a dragon with the aspect of otataral, so that would sugest that they are in some way linked to the architectuary of aspected realms. now i remember reading about a civil war during the history of the dragon race this war had something to do with the children of the dragons, which were themselves dragons, not getting there birthright, i take this to meen they were to inherite the realm of Starvald Demelain or have the pwer to create there own aspected realms but instead Elder Gods like Tiam -Mother Dark inherited them and so then aswell as Starvald Demelain we had Khurld Gelain follewd by Khuruld thyrlann and Khuruld Emurhlan warren of light and shadow. As well as Tima there came a hoste of Elder Gods who inherited the power of either making or ruling an aspected realm. Some of these Elder Gods such as Mael was a ruler of a Hold. these Holds were ancient and those who practice in wielding the magic from these realms are working with a raw form of an aspect. From holds there came Houses which on the face of things seems to be a more refined advanced and in some cases newer form of aspected magic. It also was around this time where many Elder Gods passed on the mantle of rulership to a host of Ascendants -Oponn(ruler of the missaligned aspect of chance) for instance- are the children of Knuckles the once ruler of his own Hold an older version to chance thought i forget its name. After the misguided priests brought down the Crippled God K'rul the Maker of Paths fashioned a warren (the imperial warren) which hides the wounding done to what he says is a young world he then goes on to create the warrens, which is accessible to humans, using his own blood as the pathways we also know that chaos is the fabric parting each of the warrens within the paths of krulls blood. There was magic that those on this planet could use before K'rul made the warrens though and not just an alien magic like those misguided priests worked with in there pulling down of the Crippled God (although that would sugest a familirality with the workings of magic) and we know this because of the Imass. Although the Tlan Imass are an Elder Race they are an elder race of what are now hybrid humans and before they became T'lan I'mass they could use magic although i think it was ritual magic the aspect of the magic i dont know maybee it was a magic which is bound within the realm of earth, although evidence is shown that they knew of holds as they worshiped the hold of the beast there isnt no known aspected realm where they drew there magic from. I think that they created there own aspected realm which was the ritual of tellan which was the power of the assembled imass's life force.
A significant event in Earths history was Burn. Burn a once sorceress is asleep she dreams to sleep though im not sure what thats ment to meen does it have any significance as to Earth being any type of warren. Burn is Queen of High House Life so is Earth now the warren of Life. Also a mage can pass from Earth into his warren or he can be in a foreign warren like when Kulp was trapped in Maels warren on the silanah along with heboric fellesin stormy and co- (Meanas i think it was) -now from Maels warren he could access his warren and from his warren he can return to Earth. If Kulp can fashion a gate to return to Earth why cant he do it from Meals warren why can he only exit his warren back into earth and why is it attuned to return to Earth anyway. is it him thats attuned to return to Earth or his warren. I understand that he can only weave with the fabric of his warreen but in exiting his warren he is then entering a differant realm and im just confused as to why every mage is able to return to earth but only from a warren they have mastery of where. Another interesting theory is if a jahgutt can come to earth and access the warren of omptose phellack then can it also enter another foreign warren like kurruld galain and access its omptose phellak warren there ?
I seem to remember a scene with the Elder God Olar Ethil making some very impressive statements do i recall rightly if i said she claimed to of created our world or did she say she had something to do with Burn or she is Burn
I would love to see a well detailed history of events concerning the known arrival of each speciesas well as each and everyaspected realm unaligned and alligned and if Chaos did come before the universe or if the Universe or did the Universe come before Chaos, also who were the architects of these realms and other realms of existence.
It could be that any aspected realm wasnt always aspected that some being of immense power wove there aspected magic into the fabric of that world and in doing so seperated it away from that which it once was and from that point it became only accessible to those who could work with the aspect of its perticular magic so that they could create a gate. a logical thought would then be that each world wherever it was created would then mimic the world that it had once been in weays of the land and for most part the main elements like earth water and air. However if there are more worlds within the realm where Earth can be found which are habitable why havnt some of the elder races exited through gates from there realms out onto other planets in the same plain of existence as earth now exists on, or does the size of there realm mimic the size of the plannet it originated from. That cant be the case however as i recall after the sundering of Emurlahn Silchas Ruin and Scabandarii found this realm and attempted to conquer it for there peoples and one of them made a comment saying that this Earth was a young world so that would meen that the world where they came from was older than Earth and so how could it mimic this planet so that would suggest that Elder Races arnt bound to fixed position within our realm of existance what i find strangesdt of all is if this is even close to accurate then this would meen that although the realm where earth can be found might not be aspected to any single nature it is still a very important realm housing many of the denizens of the pantheon ascendants Elder Gods and many more and so why hasnt it been coined with a name.

[High King of Chaos]

it seems that K'rul didnt create the warrens after the fall of the crippled god but he created the very birth of the warrens during the dawn of the warrens existance but although he created the foundations then how or when were the paths accessible to humans made. and this still doesnt answer many of my questions explain many of the possible theories ive mentioned

[worry]

I suggest that this thread be moved to the Writing forum since it qualifies as a short story.

[amphibian]

High King of Chaos, on 15 August 2010 - 07:28 PM, said:

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For something as long and complicated as this, I would really appreciate it if you took the time to put in paragraph breaks when you start a new thought. Spelling correctly also helps your words be taken more seriously.

There are obviously going to be SPOILERS in my discussion, so if anyone has not read all the books, put this aside and come back to it later.

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What im trying to piece together is in when in the history of aspected realms gods accendants Elder Races Holds Houses and warrens did Earth arrive did it predeceed all else ? or was it a by product of something older. Is Earth within an aspected realm or is the realm of existance where u will find earth the birthing place for all other realms of exiistence. If it is the birthplace of all the aspected realms why hasnt it been coined with a name.

You've read the books and have a general idea of where things slot into place. Exact origins of warrens/holds/gods/elements are very fuzzy or unknown at this point. What you refer to as Earth is just the planet that the Malazan series takes place on - it is very likely not the Earth that we live upon. A joke name for this planet the Malazan series takes place on was coined on this forum long ago, and it's stuck among most of the long-time residents: "Wu".

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First there was Chaos

We don't know this. It's possible, but we don't know. The Mother Dark origin story hints at it, but that's one possibility.

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I would love to see a well detailed history of events concerning the known arrival of each speciesas well as each and everyaspected realm unaligned and alligned and if Chaos did come before the universe or if the Universe or did the Universe come before Chaos, also who were the architects of these realms and other realms of existence.

You and a whole bunch of other people. It may not ever happen. I rather enjoy the ambiguity and contradictions that we have - it makes it so much more interesting.

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Dragons where alive at this time and we know they had there own aspected realm Starvald Demelain what isnt clear to me is were these dragons created within starvald demelain or did they used to fly around the universes differant planets, or who created the realm of stasrvald demelain. Ive heard it said that for every warren there is a dragon with the same aspect even a dragon with the aspect of otataral, so that would sugest that they are in some way linked to the architectuary of aspected realms. now i remember reading about a civil war during the history of the dragon race this war had something to do with the children of the dragons, which were themselves dragons, not getting there birthright, i take this to meen they were to inherite the realm of Starvald Demelain or have the pwer to create there own aspected realms but instead Elder Gods like Tiam -Mother Dark inherited them and so then aswell as Starvald Demelain we had Khurld Gelain follewd by Khuruld thyrlann and Khuruld Emurhlan warren of light and shadow.

Starvald Demelain is mostly a mystery. We've seen a glimpse of it - as the boneyard of dragons - and it was obviously the source of something dangerous enough that Kilmandaros teamed up with Anomander Rake to seal off the realm long ago and is important enough now that Shadowthrone and Cotillon planted an Azath at its gate within the Refugium. We do not know if Starvald Demelain existed before, after or concurrently with Kurald Galain. According to the Andii origin tales, Kurald Thryllan and Father Light came later, with Kurald Emurhlan and the royal line of the Edur coming after Light and Dark conflicted. Again, this is the Andii origin tales, and we know that at least the Edur origin tales have been twisted and half-forgotten over the millennia. Perhaps we'll get more about these concepts and stories in the planned Kharkanas books.

Whether the dragons came first or whether they were created within Starvald Demelain is unknown. We have seen dragons travel within the Azath to different locations (possibly different worlds), we know that Anomander Rake and the other Andii draconic soletakens dealt with Tiam on a different world far away and long ago, and we know that Tiam has been referred to as something akin to the Mother of all dragons (and that she dies and is reborn many times over).

There may or may not be a dragon aspected with each element/warren/hold. We've seen the otataral dragon, seen Serc's corpse nailed to a crucifix and seen chained dragons who once contended for dominance over Shadow. However, Silanah doesn't seem to have a particular aspect.

I'm not sure what you're referring to as a civil war. Almost every dragon we've seen, Soletaken or pure dragon, has been in conflict with one another for power and dominance. Dragons have always been at each others' throats. Also, Kilmandaros has been engaged in a one-woman big lizard killing frenzy for thousands and thousands of years. Perhaps what you're referring to is the civil war between the Andii factions that sparked into violence once Anomander Rake "killed" Tiam. Or the civil war between the long- and short- tail K'Chain, who venerate dragons and are large lizards themselves.

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As well as Tima there came a hoste of Elder Gods who inherited the power of either making or ruling an aspected realm. Some of these Elder Gods such as Mael was a ruler of a Hold.

When is it said that Mael ruled a Hold? He's an old Elder God for sure and possibly an elemental force. You have the Hold to House progression generally right. However, what spurred the development from Hold to House or where the Jaghut rituals gained the ability to stop this progression is unknown.

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It also was around this time where many Elder Gods passed on the mantle of rulership to a host of Ascendants -Oponn(ruler of the missaligned aspect of chance) for instance- are the children of Knuckles the once ruler of his own Hold an older version to chance thought i forget its name.

Knuckles, or Set'chul Lath, passed his power on to the Errant. Oponn developed godhood on other continents, presumably in the House system.

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After the misguided priests brought down the Crippled God K'rul the Maker of Paths fashioned a warren (the imperial warren) which hides the wounding done to what he says is a young world he then goes on to create the warrens, which is accessible to humans, using his own blood as the pathways we also know that chaos is the fabric parting each of the warrens within the paths of krulls blood.

It wasn't priests that brought down Kaminsod.

Furthermore, I'm not sure when exactly K'rul made the bargain with his blood/magic. It could have been before or after Kaminsod fell to earth. Perhaps another reader can pinpoint this. K'rul's encapsulment of the Imperial Warren wasn't done to hide the wounding the Crippled God left upon the world; it was done in response to Kallor leveling his entire empire out of spite.

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Although the Tlan Imass are an Elder Race they are an elder race of what are now hybrid humans and before they became T'lan I'mass they could use magic although i think it was ritual magic the aspect of the magic i dont know maybee it was a magic which is bound within the realm of earth, although evidence is shown that they knew of holds as they worshiped the hold of the beast there isnt no known aspected realm where they drew there magic from.

The warren of Tellann is what they used. The Ritual of Tellann is what zombified them. Going on what we saw in the later books, with the smaller Rituals that other Imass enacted, they took the fire of magic out of an area and transmogrified themselves.

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A significant event in Earths history was Burn. Burn a once sorceress is asleep she dreams to sleep though im not sure what thats ment to meen does it have any significance as to Earth being any type of warren. Burn is Queen of High House Life so is Earth now the warren of Life.

Burn is a headache - further complicated by the conflation of D'riss with her and Olar Ethil's wacko sermon to Dead Toc. I think on this forum, Hetan and D'rek know the ins and out of that situation the best.

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It could be that any aspected realm wasnt always aspected that some being of immense power wove there aspected magic into the fabric of that world and in doing so seperated it away from that which it once was and from that point it became only accessible to those who could work with the aspect of its perticular magic so that they could create a gate.

Knowing how Erikson likes multiple pathways to similar results, you can probably be assured it works both ways - a being can adopt an already extant aspect or create it on its own. Icarium essentially became a mini-K'rul in Dust of Dreams and Karsa and other Toblakai have become their own warrens. It might also work another way in that the aspect creates its own avatar or being like Kettle was created to be an Azath seed.

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However if there are more worlds within the realm where Earth can be found which are habitable why havnt some of the elder races exited through gates from there realms out onto other planets

It's entirely possible that did indeed happen. The short-tails had to go somewhere when they left (possibly into the warren of Chaos) and it's also possible that the other Andii factions not led by a brother of Anomander at least went elsewhere. The importance of Wu appears to be that it's where this particular story is taking place.

[High King of Chaos]

i cant think of any quates that back up mael being ruler of his aspected realm maybee i used the wrong word when i said hold i ment Elder Warren as ive always assumed that Mael is the ruler of that warrren where the silnah was stranded and taken out of the warren by kulp and co also the same warren that the crimson guard got stuck in and when they arived at the docks on quan they appeared spectrul like an armada of the dammned

knuckles didnt pass his manle over to the errant knuckles is deffinatley the parent of oponn, theres a discussion when killamandaross is smcking her huge fists into the ground i think to get to either otataral dragon or dragon of chaos and knuckles says something along the lines of he got bored with it and so created oppon

Apart from that thanx for the great response this is in most parts exactly what im after further study on the malazan encyclopedia which im delighted to see up and running has also revealed some of the same corrections you made amphibian. I just hope that others can be as patient with my terrible grammer as amphibian has been although ive been readin fantasy for around ten years now and have no trouble reading my schooling with writing was cut very short : )

[High King of Chaos]

i cant think of any quates that back up mael being ruler of his aspected realm maybee i used the wrong word when i said hold i ment Elder Warren as ive always assumed that Mael is the ruler of that warrren where the silnah was stranded and taken out of the warren by kulp and co also the same warren that the crimson guard got stuck in and when they arived at the docks on quan they appeared spectrul like an armada of the dammned

knuckles didnt pass his manle over to the errant knuckles is deffinatley the parent of oponn, theres a discussion when killamandaross is smcking her huge fists into the ground i think to get to either otataral dragon or dragon of chaos and knuckles says something along the lines of he got bored with it and so created oppon

Apart from that thanx for the great response this is in most parts exactly what im after further study on the malazan encyclopedia which im delighted to see up and running has also revealed some of the same corrections you made amphibian. I just hope that others can be as patient with my terrible grammer as amphibian has been although ive been readin fantasy for around ten years now and have no trouble reading my schooling with writing was cut very short : )

[Sinisdar Toste]

High King of Chaos, on 15 August 2010 - 09:34 PM, said:

i cant think of any quates that back up mael being ruler of his aspected realm maybee i used the wrong word when i said hold i ment Elder Warren as ive always assumed that Mael is the ruler of that warrren where the silnah was stranded and taken out of the warren by kulp and co also the same warren that the crimson guard got stuck in and when they arived at the docks on quan they appeared spectrul like an armada of the dammned

knuckles didnt pass his manle over to the errant knuckles is deffinatley the parent of oponn, theres a discussion when killamandaross is smcking her huge fists into the ground i think to get to either otataral dragon or dragon of chaos and knuckles says something along the lines of he got bored with it and so created oppon

Apart from that thanx for the great response this is in most parts exactly what im after further study on the malazan encyclopedia which im delighted to see up and running has also revealed some of the same corrections you made amphibian. I just hope that others can be as patient with my terrible grammer as amphibian has been although ive been readin fantasy for around ten years now and have no trouble reading my schooling with writing was cut very short : )

knuckles did indeed pass his power onto the opponnai, not errastas. knuckles and the errant were contemporaries.

the warren that the silanda plunged into was not maels realm. it was a piece of the shattered warren kurald emurlahn, known as the nascent. maels realm is the ocean. a figurative "world" unto itself, despite it being part of the planet we sometimes call Wu. also, i don't think Burn was ever a mortal sorceress. i believe that olar ethil once held the aspect of the earth and creation, but when she enacted the ritual of tellann upon herself she was divorced from that aspect and a part of her developed into an entirely new entity, now called burn.

regarding your questions about when the planet that the story is set upon was created, i think it existed parallel to the worlds of the tiste and of dragons for a long time, but there were no gates between them so no peoples knew of the other worlds. the quotes from k'rul and the tiste about it being a "young" world are from their perspective, it may be young in their eyes, but still millions of years old.

[High King of Chaos]

I think the passage i read saying that burn was a once mortal sorceress,which i can clearly remember out of MOI within the first 200pages, may be a GotMism (http://encyclopediam...miss+gotm&sp=57) also when has Earth been reffered to as Wu - (I'm reading the series for the secound time and was bound to miss some details first time round so this must be one ive missed)

[amphibian]

High King of Chaos, on 16 August 2010 - 12:53 PM, said:

I think the passage i read saying that burn was a once mortal sorceress,which i can clearly remember out of MOI within the first 200pages, may be a GotMism (http://encyclopediam...miss+gotm&sp=57) also when has Earth been reffered to as Wu - (I'm reading the series for the secound time and was bound to miss some details first time round so this must be one ive missed)

Burn is a headache, as I've said. You were right about Knuckles and Oponn. I always get the lineage mixed up.

The planet the series takes place on has not been referred to within the series as Earth or as Wu. Wu developed as a widespread adoption of a joke. It's a placeholder name that works well and is rather memorable. That's it.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

High King of Chaos, on 16 August 2010 - 12:53 PM, said:

I think the passage i read saying that burn was a once mortal sorceress,which i can clearly remember out of MOI within the first 200pages, may be a GotMism (http://encyclopediam...miss+gotm&sp=57) also when has Earth been reffered to as Wu - (I'm reading the series for the secound time and was bound to miss some details first time round so this must be one ive missed)

You're confusing Burn with T'riss. The quote you're talking about in MoI is Tool explaining how Rake walked with Caladan Brood and a mortal sorceress who would then become the Queen of Dreams.

[SkunkMonk]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 16 August 2010 - 03:40 PM, said:

High King of Chaos, on 16 August 2010 - 12:53 PM, said:

I think the passage i read saying that burn was a once mortal sorceress,which i can clearly remember out of MOI within the first 200pages, may be a GotMism (http://encyclopediam...miss+gotm&sp=57) also when has Earth been reffered to as Wu - (I'm reading the series for the secound time and was bound to miss some details first time round so this must be one ive missed)

You're confusing Burn with T'riss. The quote you're talking about in MoI is Tool explaining how Rake walked with Caladan Brood and a mortal sorceress who would then become the Queen of Dreams.

but didnt Olar Ethil state that she was burn to that guy who was alongside the red mask the one who used to mock toc the younger

[Findarato]

she said so to Torrent, but it might be a lie, or a half-truth.

Burn never was a mortal sorceress as far as I know. I believe Olar Ethil the bonecaster has had many appearances among the different peoples and races, and so that adds to the confusion about who she is. But she is not T'riss (who apparently once was a sorceress,now ascended and the queen of dreams.)
she might have had some connection to an aspect of Burn maybe, I am not sure about this. But she is not Burn herself who still sleeps.

[High King of Chaos]

Findarato, on 24 August 2010 - 01:56 PM, said:

she said so to Torrent, but it might be a lie, or a half-truth.

Burn never was a mortal sorceress as far as I know. I believe Olar Ethil the bonecaster has had many appearances among the different peoples and races, and so that adds to the confusion about who she is. But she is not T'riss (who apparently once was a sorceress,now ascended and the queen of dreams.)
she might have had some connection to an aspect of Burn maybe, I am not sure about this. But she is not Burn herself who still sleeps.

currently on my secound read of the series thus far and i have only just realised Queen Of Dreams isnt the same as Burn, i always got this confused as Burn sleeps to dream so i had always thought the two acendants were one and the same- could someone please give me a small explenation as of the differances between the two please to help me understand this a little better

This post has been edited by High King of Chaos: 02 September 2010 - 02:04 PM

[D'rek]

High King of Chaos, on 02 September 2010 - 02:03 PM, said:

could someone please give me a small explenation as of the differances between the two please to help me understand this a little better

One is the Queen of Dreams.
The other is Burn.
They are different goddesses.
Completely.
That is the difference.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Spoiler

the queen of dreams was once a mortal sorcerer and spent time in the company of osserc, rake, brood, and possibly others. burn is the earth, the "mother goddess" whose children swarm her flesh. olar ethil claims to have once been burn or to have held that aspect, but now she's just a dusty old t'lan imass bonecaster with more tellann muscles than most

or so goes the consensus

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 02 September 2010 - 05:00 PM

[High King of Chaos]

.
.

This post has been edited by High King of Chaos: 03 September 2010 - 01:52 PM

[High King of Chaos]

D, on 02 September 2010 - 03:00 PM, said:

High King of Chaos, on 02 September 2010 - 02:03 PM, said:

could someone please give me a small explenation as of the differances between the two please to help me understand this a little better

One is the Queen of Dreams.
The other is Burn.
They are different goddesses.
Completely.
That is the difference.

thanx for your reply D'rek i was aware of this but i was hoping for a little bit more information about the two i know that Burn is a goddess she sleeps to dream she was fashioned during the time of chaining and the fallen one is chained to her brood is her champion who carries his 2h hammer which has the ability to wake brum from her eternal slumber but i know next to nothing about the queen of dreams id really aprreciate it if u could bestow your knoledge of this matter upon me please : )

This post has been edited by High King of Chaos: 03 September 2010 - 02:04 PM

[haroos]

i'm unclear on this whole mess.

on the one hand we have warrens, which are offshoots of elder warrens (?).
at least the first 5-6 books describe magic like this : elder warrens for elder races, and warrens for humans (although warrens can be used by elders as well).
that would indicate that a creature is aspected to a warren, by his nature, and not by his ability.

still, how does it stand with the tiles ?
supposedly the cedas can use magic direct from the sources, without use of k'rul's blood (as i see it), but if that is true,
then what is that magic ?
is it chaos focused, or some other sources of power ?

and last :
warrens come from elder warrens.
and elder warrens come from primal aspects (dark, light, shadow and so on).
what are the tiles, the holds as sources of magic ?
in moi k'rul said that chaos is what exists between the warrens, i always assumed it meant "places"
that dragons didn't clear a path with in , and so they are unformed warrens, and unstable, which is why people get crazy when using chaos, because
they are pulled into all kinds of warrens ... (this is where i lose it).

in short, what are the sources of magic then ?
blood for warrens ?
and what for tiles and holds ?

[Hetan]

The tiles are simply a form of divination, an unrefined version of the deck of dragons. Here is a reference :-

Mappo: 'At the lowest levels of this temple (the Tesem Temple of Shadow) there lies a chamber. Its floor - flagstones - displays a series of carvings. Inscribing something like a Deck of Dragons. Neither Icarium nor I have seen anything like it before. If it is indeed a Deck, it's an Elder version. Not Houses, but Holds, the forces more elemental, more raw and primitive.'(DG, UK MMPB, p.455)

[haroos]

Hetan, on 11 September 2010 - 12:24 PM, said:

The tiles are simply a form of divination, an unrefined version of the deck of dragons. Here is a reference :-

Mappo: 'At the lowest levels of this temple (the Tesem Temple of Shadow) there lies a chamber. Its floor - flagstones - displays a series of carvings. Inscribing something like a Deck of Dragons. Neither Icarium nor I have seen anything like it before. If it is indeed a Deck, it's an Elder version. Not Houses, but Holds, the forces more elemental, more raw and primitive.'(DG, UK MMPB, p.455)

ok, what then are the holds ?
in comparison to the warrens ?