[worry]

That in itself is a shame.

[ansible]

Memories of Ice, Tor trade paperback, p.765 said:

Quick Ben glanced into the hallway. 'They left everything, you know.'

'What? Who?'

'Rake. The Tiste Andii. Left their possessions. Everything.'

'Why would they do that? They are to settle in Black Coral, aren't they? The city's been stripped clean...'

Quick Ben shrugged. 'Tiste Andii,' he said, in a tone that silently added: we'll never know.

Memories of Ice, Tor trade paperback, p.766 said:

The Grey Swords had established a temporary encampment fifty paces east of the massive, glittering barrow that had already acquired the name of Itkovian's Gift. Ragged bands of Tenescowri, emaciated and sickly, had emerged from Black Coral, and from the woodlands, and were all congregating around the camp. Word of Anaster's...rebirth had spread, and with it the promise of salvation.

[Siergiej]

Coming back to the main topic:

I was disappointed with HoC finale too. It's exactly as You said - the tension built up by events from DeadHouse Gates was huge. Then, 14th was just marching. And marching. And marching. The novel is coming to the end, and yes... Tavore and her troops are already there. The big revenge on those ugly bastards who crucified Coltaine is coming. Ha-ha-ha! Beware dogslayers! Oh, great, they are having a duel! Ha! Bye-bye Felisin, and now for the most entertaining finale in... wait, what?! They're already dead, because... ghosts killed them? 2 novels of hype, and 14th didn't even draw their weapons? Jesus! This was really frustrating.

This post has been edited by Siergiej: 12 August 2010 - 11:55 AM

[D'rek]

That entire plot-line of HoC (and DG) is all about the one-on-one relationship of Felisin and Tavore. Armies fighting juts gets in the way of an intensely more personal resolution.

[HedgeWalker]

HoC ending was as usual, not what I expected at all....and by that token, as good as any other.

The events and happenings that can't be predicted, and the convergences that can, are one of the facets of these novels that keep me interested. I too was looking forward to a solid bit of Choppy-Choppy as the 14th tried to take the hill, dammit! I wanted some filth-ridden revenge for the Chain of Dogs...But I wasn't disappointed with the way things turned out in terms of the events or the way the book was written. I was gutted the 14th didn't get involved, but it seemed appropriately disappointing that they didn't given the preceding events...

[Weave]

Whether satisfaction or emptiness one feels at the finale, it's testament to the sheer skill of SE's writing.
Were all so invested and intertwined with this story, this world, these people, we feel. It matters.

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Weave, on 13 August 2010 - 04:13 PM, said:

Whether satisfaction or emptiness one feels at the finale, it's testament to the sheer skill of SE's writing.
Were all so invested and intertwined with this story, this world, these people, we feel. It matters.

Weave, my 2 cents to this issue: You will have to read Bonehunters to really understand what the Apocalypse was actually about. Pity about some of the spoilers here.

The ghosts that rose were not just the Bridgeburners, but all the ghosts of empires and armies past buried in Raraku, i.e. ancient Raraku rises to cleanse itself of the trespasser that is the Apocalypse. we know in which warren it was anchored and whose fingers are manipulating this. Felisin as the Apocalypse, knowing the players in the background ? The perfect choice, knowing Felisin.

HoC is one of the volumes that benefits most from a careful reread, because you expect a *moneyshot* finale and get...something else that may be unexpected, but leads very logically to the major picture/theme of the entire cycle. But, as is typical with SE, you will have to read on to really understand why HoC ends the way it does.

To be honest, I shared your feeling the first couple of reads, then certain things started to fall into place. As always with SE, pay close attention to what may seem secondary plot lines...

[Tatterdemalion]

Thank you, Ansible.

Spiridon_Deannis, on 13 August 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:

HoC is one of the volumes that benefits most from a careful reread, because you expect a *moneyshot* finale and get...something else that may be unexpected, but leads very logically to the major picture/theme of the entire cycle. But, as is typical with SE, you will have to read on to really understand why HoC ends the way it does.

Having just reread House of Chains, I definitely agree. This book may not have the same epicness events-wise as other books - but you learn so much about the world from it. So many details, revelations and truths about things you thought you already knew. Much more of the book is exposition explaining how things can happen. For example, Crokus and Apsalar's interactions with Drift Avalii and Cotillion I found particularly revealing - although I can never remember exactly of what.

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Tatterdemalion, on 13 August 2010 - 05:10 PM, said:

Thank you, Ansible.

Spiridon_Deannis, on 13 August 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:

HoC is one of the volumes that benefits most from a careful reread, because you expect a *moneyshot* finale and get...something else that may be unexpected, but leads very logically to the major picture/theme of the entire cycle. But, as is typical with SE, you will have to read on to really understand why HoC ends the way it does.

Having just reread House of Chains, I definitely agree. This book may not have the same epicness events-wise as other books - but you learn so much about the world from it. So many details, revelations and truths about things you thought you already knew. Much more of the book is exposition explaining how things can happen. For example, Crokus and Apsalar's interactions with Drift Avalii and Cotillion I found particularly revealing - although I can never remember exactly of what.

Add to that Karsa Orlong and the Seven Gods - and who they actually are - and what concretely the Whirlwind turns out to be - think Warren ! - you start getting the notion that the Apocalypse is just one battle front of of the same war, which gets fleshed out in detail in the following 3 volumes. Really a worthwhile must-case of RAFO to reappreciate HoC having a clearer view of the bigger picture.

[Weave]

That's obviously a massive part of it. HoC is part way through a series, I Basically go to the end and got this message:






All that work for no actual reward, just the promise of more work.
But the ultimate salvation will be that much more of a success.
One hopes!

[worry]

What work?

[HoosierDaddy]

Jumping on turtles, munching shrooms, and diving through fire pylons.

You know, like Karsa's journey.

[Weave]

LoL should point out I LOVE LOVE LOVE my work.
(I co-ordinate a team who support young adults with learning disabilities)

[Coltaine's Floozy]

On the surface, the ending might seem a bit disappointing, however, when I think about it, there is poetic justice in the fact that it wasn't the 14th that took revenge for the Chain of Dogs but the actual soldiers who were slaughtered during the Chain of Dogs - they themselves took revenge (for example, all three Wickan tribes, including Coltaine's Crow Clan were there as ghosts - their standard was flying in the dogslayers' trenches in the morning). I mean, if you got butchered by some trecherous bastards, wouldn't you want to come back and repay them in kind? That is exactly what happened. As to Tavore and Feliesin - that was kind of brief and a let down, but then again their final scene actually made me feel sorry for the youngest Paran girl (something I had not felt for her since her introduction - largely because her character was too abrasive before). One thing remains though. A lot has been made, since DG, regarding Tavore's inexperience. The one hope with the Apocalypse was that it would (should) prove her mettle and show her for being either hot or cold iron. As far as I'm concerned, none of that has come to pass yet. Tavore is still untried, despite the fact that she appears to be heading toward 'cold' iron. This somewhat abrupt 'ending' to the Whirlwind has robbed Tavore of prooving herself as a strong Adjunct.

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Coltaine, on 15 August 2010 - 10:33 PM, said:

On the surface, the ending might seem a bit disappointing, however, when I think about it, there is poetic justice in the fact that it wasn't the 14th that took revenge for the Chain of Dogs but the actual soldiers who were slaughtered during the Chain of Dogs - they themselves took revenge (for example, all three Wickan tribes, including Coltaine's Crow Clan were there as ghosts - their standard was flying in the dogslayers' trenches in the morning). I mean, if you got butchered by some trecherous bastards, wouldn't you want to come back and repay them in kind? That is exactly what happened. As to Tavore and Feliesin - that was kind of brief and a let down, but then again their final scene actually made me feel sorry for the youngest Paran girl (something I had not felt for her since her introduction - largely because her character was too abrasive before). One thing remains though. A lot has been made, since DG, regarding Tavore's inexperience. The one hope with the Apocalypse was that it would (should) prove her mettle and show her for being either hot or cold iron. As far as I'm concerned, none of that has come to pass yet. Tavore is still untried, despite the fact that she appears to be heading toward 'cold' iron. This somewhat abrupt 'ending' to the Whirlwind has robbed Tavore of prooving herself as a strong Adjunct.

Your last observation will become something of a recurring theme for the 14th, which will be known as...
RAFO.
The man knows what he does...

[Smoked Out Knuckle Sammy]

D, on 10 August 2010 - 08:47 PM, said:

It's funny that the newer-powers-defeating-old-stuff argument was brought up here as this is the one very clear case that I find is the very opposite. The old Sha'ik kept her high-mages in line and sent her armies scouring across the sub-continent. The new Sha'ik couldn't control her bickering staff and pulled the entire army back to Raraku, followed by having her best general make a *defensive* strategy in Raraku when he'd just conquered the entire sub-continent minus Aren with brutal efficiency. New Sha'ik wasted her mages, wasted Korbolo Dom and wound up getting her and her goddess killed without the Malazans lifting a finger. Old Sha'ik may not have had it in her to defeat Tavore and the 14th, but she would've done a hell of a better job trying.

I dunno, D'rek. Elder Sha'ik's legacy doesn't hold up so well. This from HoC: "Korbolo Dom and Coltaine fought nine major engagements-nine battles-on the Chain of Dogs. Of These, Korbolo was clear victor in one, and one only. At the Fall. Outside the walls of Aren. And for that he needed Kamist Reloe, and the power of Mael, as channelled through the Jhistal priest, Mallick Rel." Neither was Kamist Reloe kicking ass in the early part of the Chain, when he was on his own. Further, Shaik's decisions played no part in the killing of the Goddess - that was treachery. The entire group of Sha'ik's mages and generals seemed to be so inherently flawed and unreliable that the act of allying with them in the first place seems to be the biggest blunder.


Sha'ik 2.0 withdrew to Raraku because the seige of Aren would have taken forever, especially with the imminent arrival of Tavore and Nok. The Army of the Apocolypse was going to be in a defensive position regardless - far better to be looking down on the exhausted 14th from a fully-supplied Raraku than looking up at the walls of Aren from a relatively vulnerable position.

Finally, It's not really clear what role the mortal beings embodied by Sha'ik I and II actually played in the entire drama. It seems like the Goddess made the calls most of the time, and she was insane in the membrane.

This post has been edited by Smoked Out Knuckle Sammy: 06 February 2011 - 08:23 PM

[jonny_anonymous]

I wonder if I'm the only one that kind of wanted the Whirlwind Rebellion to succeed.

[Itwæs Nom]

jonny_anonymous, on 04 October 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

I wonder if I'm the only one that kind of wanted the Whirlwind Rebellion to succeed.

I didnt.
All the ignorants that would get to power.
Korbolo.
The raping mage and the other mage.
Felisin.(not actually ignorant, but would you like her to rule over you?)
All the bandits within the ranks of rebellion.
All the undisciplined warriors that would turn to bandits.
All the guys in the cities would fight for right to rule.
All the spilled blood.

This post has been edited by Charlie Nom: 04 October 2015 - 10:42 AM

[Andorion]

As Rake remarks in MoI, Malazan rule is primarily constructive and positive in nature. Malazan rule ensures safety from bandits, stable government and tax structures. This encourages trade and increases prosperity.

In fact in both DG and HoC it is specified several times that pre-malazan Seven Cities was a mess of warring cities and tribes.

The Whilrwind rebellion would have returned the sub-continent to that state. Thus its victory was never desirable.

[jonny_anonymous]

Andorion, on 04 October 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

As Rake remarks in MoI, Malazan rule is primarily constructive and positive in nature. Malazan rule ensures safety from bandits, stable government and tax structures. This encourages trade and increases prosperity.

In fact in both DG and HoC it is specified several times that pre-malazan Seven Cities was a mess of warring cities and tribes.

The Whilrwind rebellion would have returned the sub-continent to that state. Thus its victory was never desirable.

If that's the case then why did Rake spend so much time warring against the Malazans?