[Siergiej]

I've just started my first read of Bonehunters. I am still at the very beginning and already enjoying the story, but can't get something off my mind. The scene when Cotillion visits 3 chained Eleint in the realm of Shadow is totally intriguing, it made me say that it's good old Malazan Book of the Fallen, but one thing is bothering me. How come Cotillion knows all that stuff about the nature of warrens, Starvald Demelain, K'rul's plans, conflict between Eleint and soletaken with Tiam's blood, Scabandari Bloodeye? Did I miss something important in preceeding novels, or am I going to find out later why fairly new ascendant knows all that stuff that seemed reserved for elder gods & co.? Or is it just the fact, that he is Rope, and automatically knows da shit!

[D'rek]

Well, we don't know toooo much about Dancer, but Kellanved was a hugely knowledgeable and did tons of research, as well as seeking knowledge from other magic scholars like Oleg. Then late in their rule Dancer and Kel left the empire completely to pursure their research even further. They definitely had a lot figured out before they even ascended, and probably even more so since they've become gods.

[HiddenOne]

It's all explained in "The Handbook for New Gods and Ascendants" Didn't everybody get their copy?

[Siergiej]

Quote

It's all explained in "The Handbook for New Gods and Ascendants" Didn't everybody get their copy?

Damn, my Deragoth must've eaten it!

Quote

Well, we don't know toooo much about Dancer, but Kellanved was a hugely knowledgeable and did tons of research, as well as seeking knowledge from other magic scholars like Oleg. Then late in their rule Dancer and Kel left the empire completely to pursure their research even further.

Sure, but still, he knows things that seemed to be far beyond grasp of a mortal. And he ascended rather lately. Even among Edur, knowledge about fate of Scabandari is close to none. As far as I remember, only Sengar family and Hannan Mosag know that Father Shadow got his ass handed to Kilmandaros. These 3 chained Eleint are also surprised that Cotillion knows the name of Scabandari, however they seem amused when he implies that they killed Father Shadow.

Other thing that makes me wonder, is why Anomander Rake didn't kill Shadowthrone and Cotillion. When someone gets close to the Throne of Shadows, Anomandaris usually turns on his Awesome Ass Kicking Mode in which he is capable of chaining three pureblood Eleint. Then he goes straight to a bar with his friend Caladan Brood and orders a bottle of ale. Maybe I am overrating Rake, but if he wanted to stop Kellanved and Dancer from ascending, I strongly doubt that he would even have to draw his sword. After all, they weren't much more than some dalhonese despot and his assasin friend. He could just scare them shitless in his soletaken form, and that would be enough. And yet, he let them get the Throne of Shadows. Intriguing. In that case, however, I think I will just have to read on to find out.

This post has been edited by Hetan: 25 July 2010 - 04:55 PM
Reason for edit: Unwise choice of word - it is removed

[Throne of War]

Don't forget, while living in the Deadhouse on Malaz Island they started toying with the Azath.Presumabley they traveled the "tiles" during they're long absence from the Empire before the NIght of Knives. This in itself is fair enough explanation as to their knowledge.

[NikitaDarkstar]

 Throne of War, on 24 July 2010 - 03:40 PM, said:

Don't forget, while living in the Deadhouse on Malaz Island they started toying with the Azath.Presumabley they traveled the "tiles" during they're long absence from the Empire before the NIght of Knives. This in itself is fair enough explanation as to their knowledge.

Beat me too it there. But I'd say that them exploring the Azath pretty much explains everything. Well ok perhaps not everything, but it's defently enough to explain how they know what they know.

[Harvester]

Firstly -> They are gods and can also talk to other gods, e.g. Edgewalker (probably an Elder God) or Hood.

Secondly -> They have been ... wherever they have been.

Thirdly -> They have their dirty fingers in every affair and plan.. you'll find out soon enough.

This post has been edited by Harvester: 24 July 2010 - 04:36 PM

[SilenceYourTongueAndWitness]

the edur dont know much about scandabari because they havent had people to talk to about it, Shadowthrone and Cotillion have been in direct contact with elder gods and ascendants from that time , just sayin

[worry]

On topic though, besides the Azath I imagine they also had access to the best library in the world, even before ascension. It's just a guess, but they probably have rare texts from the likes of Gothos or whomever. I know the mages in Darujhistan seem to have plenty of access to ancient texts, but I'd imagine Kellanved, Dancer, and Tayschrenn were swimming in all available ancient knowledge.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

 Siergiej, on 24 July 2010 - 02:35 PM, said:

Other thing that makes me wonder, is why Anomander Rake didn't kill Shadowthrone and Cotillion. When someone gets close to the Throne of Shadows, Anomandaris usually turns on his Awesome Ass Kicking Mode in which he is capable of chaining three pureblood Eleint. Then he goes straight to a bar with his friend Caladan Brood and orders a bottle of ale. Maybe I am overrating Rake, but if he wanted to stop Kellanved and Dancer from ascending, I strongly doubt that he would even have to draw his sword. After all, they weren't much more than some dalhonese despot and his assasin friend. He could just scare them shitless in his soletaken form, and that would be enough. And yet, he let them get the Throne of Shadows. Intriguing. In that case, however, I think I will just have to read on to find out.

Anomander Rake guarded the Throne of Shadow and prevented people from sitting on it. However ST and Cotillion became ruler of Shadow by entering the warren through the Deadhouse. There was little he could have done.

[Siergiej]

Okay, so he couldn't stop them from grabing the Throne. But if he didn't want them to rule the realm of Shadow really badly, he would probably just pay them a little visit and kick their asses pretty hard. The fact that someone has achieved status of god doesn't seem to be any obstacle for Rake. After all, he killed an elder god at least once.

[Hetan]

 Siergiej, on 24 July 2010 - 02:35 PM, said:

Other thing that makes me wonder, is why Anomander Rake didn't kill Shadowthrone and Cotillion. When someone gets close to the Throne of Shadows, Anomandaris usually turns on his Awesome Ass Kicking Mode in which he is capable of chaining three pureblood Eleint. Then he goes straight to a bar with his friend Caladan Brood and orders a bottle of ale. Maybe I am overrating Rake, but if he wanted to stop Kellanved and Dancer from ascending, I strongly doubt that he would even have to draw his sword. After all, they weren't much more than some dalhonese despot and his assasin friend. He could just scare them shitless in his soletaken form, and that would be enough. And yet, he let them get the Throne of Shadows. Intriguing. In that case, however, I think I will just have to read on to find out.

 Siergiej, on 25 July 2010 - 04:50 PM, said:

Okay, so he couldn't stop them from grabing the Throne. But if he didn't want them to rule the realm of Shadow really badly, he would probably just pay them a little visit and kick their asses pretty hard. The fact that someone has achieved status of god doesn't seem to be any obstacle for Rake. After all, he killed an elder god at least once.

Firstly Anomander didn't guard the Throne of Shadow - He left Andarist there on Drift Avali to do that.
Secondly - Anomander Rake has nothing to with the ascension of Kellanved and Dancer - they did that all on their own.
Thirdly - it wasn't the Throne of Emurlahn that Shadowthrone sat on - it was the Throne of Meanas, another aspect of Shadow.

[Captain Awesome]

 Siergiej, on 25 July 2010 - 04:50 PM, said:

Okay, so he couldn't stop them from grabing the Throne. But if he didn't want them to rule the realm of Shadow really badly, he would probably just pay them a little visit and kick their asses pretty hard. The fact that someone has achieved status of god doesn't seem to be any obstacle for Rake. After all, he killed an elder god at least once.

Didn't they still have the protection from the T'lan Imass from controlling the whichever chair? I don't think even AR would feel like messing with them if this is the case.

[Harvester]

As Hetan already mentioned, Rake has nothing to do with this.

[Silencer]

 Hetan, on 25 July 2010 - 05:17 PM, said:

 Siergiej, on 24 July 2010 - 02:35 PM, said:

Other thing that makes me wonder, is why Anomander Rake didn't kill Shadowthrone and Cotillion. When someone gets close to the Throne of Shadows, Anomandaris usually turns on his Awesome Ass Kicking Mode in which he is capable of chaining three pureblood Eleint. Then he goes straight to a bar with his friend Caladan Brood and orders a bottle of ale. Maybe I am overrating Rake, but if he wanted to stop Kellanved and Dancer from ascending, I strongly doubt that he would even have to draw his sword. After all, they weren't much more than some dalhonese despot and his assasin friend. He could just scare them shitless in his soletaken form, and that would be enough. And yet, he let them get the Throne of Shadows. Intriguing. In that case, however, I think I will just have to read on to find out.

 Siergiej, on 25 July 2010 - 04:50 PM, said:

Okay, so he couldn't stop them from grabing the Throne. But if he didn't want them to rule the realm of Shadow really badly, he would probably just pay them a little visit and kick their asses pretty hard. The fact that someone has achieved status of god doesn't seem to be any obstacle for Rake. After all, he killed an elder god at least once.

Firstly Anomander didn't guard the Throne of Shadow - He left Andarist there on Drift Avali to do that.
Secondly - Anomander Rake has nothing to with the ascension of Kellanved and Dancer - they did that all on their own.
Thirdly - it wasn't the Throne of Emurlahn that Shadowthrone sat on - it was the Throne of Meanas, another aspect of Shadow.

Weeeeeeeeeell, is the third point 100% confirmed, Hetan? I'd argue there is some anecdotal evidence as at Bonehunters that they may have taken the Throne of Emurlahn also?

And fourthly: ANOTHER bloodbath in the Shadow Realm? Really? No-one wants that.

Plus you may be underestimating Cotillion and Ammanas - cf GotM (well, it's GotM, but still) and his acknowledgement that the pair + Hounds could possibly take him out.

And I guess, also, you're assuming Rake didn't want them on the Throne, or, rather, was opposed to it. That isn't necessarily the case. After all, two recently ascended humans are likely better to have on the Throne than: Eleint, Elemental Forces, The Crippled God, or any number of other potentials.

Finally, as has pretty much already been said, but just because he interfered in the affairs of Shadow 300,000 years ago to prevent further sundering of the realm does not mean he will interfere in someone taking the Throne today (well, a short time ago in the Malaz continuum, anyway, if not today...you know what I mean!).

[Siergiej]

Thanks for all the answers

[Tattersail_]

 Hetan, on 25 July 2010 - 05:17 PM, said:

 Siergiej, on 24 July 2010 - 02:35 PM, said:

Other thing that makes me wonder, is why Anomander Rake didn't kill Shadowthrone and Cotillion. When someone gets close to the Throne of Shadows, Anomandaris usually turns on his Awesome Ass Kicking Mode in which he is capable of chaining three pureblood Eleint. Then he goes straight to a bar with his friend Caladan Brood and orders a bottle of ale. Maybe I am overrating Rake, but if he wanted to stop Kellanved and Dancer from ascending, I strongly doubt that he would even have to draw his sword. After all, they weren't much more than some dalhonese despot and his assasin friend. He could just scare them shitless in his soletaken form, and that would be enough. And yet, he let them get the Throne of Shadows. Intriguing. In that case, however, I think I will just have to read on to find out.

 Siergiej, on 25 July 2010 - 04:50 PM, said:

Okay, so he couldn't stop them from grabing the Throne. But if he didn't want them to rule the realm of Shadow really badly, he would probably just pay them a little visit and kick their asses pretty hard. The fact that someone has achieved status of god doesn't seem to be any obstacle for Rake. After all, he killed an elder god at least once.

Firstly Anomander didn't guard the Throne of Shadow - He left Andarist there on Drift Avali to do that.
Secondly - Anomander Rake has nothing to with the ascension of Kellanved and Dancer - they did that all on their own.
Thirdly - it wasn't the Throne of Emurlahn that Shadowthrone sat on - it was the Throne of Meanas, another aspect of Shadow.

wow!! so their is a throne of rashan too? an the other one er mockra? are there so many thrones in shadow because it is shattered? if i was whole would there only be one?

[Tatterdemalion]

Start of BH, Shadowthrone is appearing 'thin and stretched' in the realm of Shadow as he speaks with Iskaral Pust. Then later on page 51 (Bantam):

'Thus,' said Cotillion, 'if freed, you would once again seek the Shadow Throne. Only this time, someone occupies the throne.'
'The veracity of that claim is subject to debate,' the female dragon said.
'A matter,' added the first dragon, 'of semantics. Shadows cast by shadows.'
'You believe Ammanas is sitting on the wrong Shadow Throne.'
'The true throne is not even in this fragment of Emurlahn.'
Cotillion crossed his arms and smiled. 'And is Ammanas?'
The dragons said nothing, and he sensed, with great satisfaction, their sudden disquiet.

Awwwww, yeeah.
How many thrones of shadow does Shadowthrone control then, hm? Also recall: shadow is more an element of Thyr than Rashan, is it not?
Isn't that somewhere in HoC or DHG?

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think its as much an element of thyr as one of rashan. both light and dark are essential to create shadow

[Throne of War]

Whatever. Any way yo slice it, ST and Cotillion are nasty with theirs. I think when all is said and done, both will be consider's "victors." I love it when a good plan comes together.