[TheSurvivor]

I've been wondering this since beginning on my reread of RotCG; who would win between Skinner and Blues. On one hand Skinner fought Dassem to a stand still but on the other hand Iron Bars described Leal's (Seguleh) attack ferocity to that of Blues' only without the power and that automatically says impressive. Personally I'm leaning towards Blues after Skinner's fight with Dassem in the book. Reasoning, maybe it's because Skinner's changed over the years or perhaps he simply didn't see the point in putting the effort into blocking every strike, probably the latter, but Skinner got clipped by Dassem fairly often and escaped unscaved only thanks to his armour. Now if Blues can fight with the speed of a Seguleh with power then I'd say he could give Skinner a run for his money as well as Dassem. Perhaps I'm looking at this wrong but in any case just a small question.

[hmqb]

I'm not sure but Dassem and Skinner were always referred to as the best

[Grief]

Blues is described by Iron bars as being the best swordsman in the crimson guard.

Now, obviously this doens't mean he'd win in a fight, particularly given Skinners dirty tactics, and armour, etc, but purely in terms of skill with a sword, Iron Bars rates Blues as the best, iiirc.

[HoosierDaddy]

I thought it was qualified as best finesse swordsman. Or is that Fingers?

[Ulrik]

In pure duel without munchkins I bet on Blues. Corlo and IB refers o Blues as best from CG, Skinner is known as special person, leader, so is better known - and yeah, he is really good, but his mates think that Blues is superior.

[MTS]

It's a tough call - Blues is considered the best swordsman in the Crimson Guard in terms of finesse, so HD is right.

ROTCG said:

Yet while the attacks came as swiftly as Blues - the Guard’s pre-eminent finesse swordsman - they lacked power.

However, Iron Bars is of the opinion that Skinner is a better swordsman before the armour.

MT said:

‘But he was good, with that sword. Fast. In another five years he’d have had the experience to have made him deadly. Enough to give anyone trouble. Shimmer, Blues, maybe even Skinner. But that armour! A damned fortune, right there for the taking. If we’d the time.’

Skinner was the only Avowed to have faced Dassem and lived, so we know he was a brilliant swordsman. Rake places him in a list with the First, as well. He schools Greymane - also in the same list - but the armour and poison had a fair bit to do with that, admittedly.

Point is, all throughout the books Skinner has been touted as the best of the Avowed, second to none. Speaking of, he's managed to evade the Second as well.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

About Blues finesse swordsmanship: Until this book came out and I got no more hints to support this theory, I thought Blues was a renegade Seguleh based on his performance in GotM seeming so eerily similar to a Seguleh's.

[MTS]

The Seguleh aren't the only ones who know how to swing a sword, you know.

Blues would had to have been serving K'azz in Avore when the Vow was made, and there is nothing to support him not being from Avore. Even in this book all that links Blues to the Seguleh is that we see him using two 'swords' and he is crazy fast.

[Sinisdar Toste]

had to look it up to make sure i wasn't just equating the name blues with napan, but blues really is a napan. when he's in the pit in RotCG, posing as grief, Ho notices his "napan-blue features"

[TheSurvivor]

Seems, so long as Skinner continues to have the Crippled God's favour with his armour and poison sword, the concensus is Skinner would win. Blues is certainly no push-over though and would quickly give Skinner a run for his money that would make him thank the gods for his armour.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

MTS, on 23 July 2010 - 06:16 PM, said:

The Seguleh aren't the only ones who know how to swing a sword, you know.

Blues would had to have been serving K'azz in Avore when the Vow was made, and there is nothing to support him not being from Avore. Even in this book all that links Blues to the Seguleh is that we see him using two 'swords' and he is crazy fast.

As I said, before I read this book lol. Previous to this book all we had was a silent figure using two slightly curved blades in a finesse fashion and a few statements saying how he 'lives for this stuff' and some references to his skill. The fact that there were no further evidence in a book where he features prominently prompted me to change my mind .

[D'rek]

I think the consensus is that Iron Bars, Skinner, Jup Alat, Poll, Blues, Black and Halfdan are all competent enough to give each other some serious trouble, and hence any duel between them could be influenced by all sorts of conditions. That being said, Skinner has proven himself more than the rest by battling Dassem and living, which supposedly none of the others have done or matched.

(Of course Blues could magic-blast the rest of them, so Blues wins)

This post has been edited by D'rek: 24 July 2010 - 01:42 AM

[TheSurvivor]

I'm not convinced by Skinner's battle with Dassem. It's said Skinner is the only one to challenge Dassem and walk away alive. From this we can easily come to the conclusion that others like Blues and Iron Bars never fought Dassem so we can't be sure how that would have went down. Blues may very well have forced Dassem to withdraw. I of course refer to pre-ascendancy Dassem.

[HoosierDaddy]

I have a feeling that Skinner was a little too assured of his armor in the fight between him and Dassem, and thus it wasn't really a normal fight. He let blows land he normally wouldn't which allowed him a freer hand in attacking Dassem. It's quite clear the Swordstor is the better of the two of them, and that Greymane had a shot sans armor as well.

[TheSurvivor]

H.D., on 24 July 2010 - 02:57 AM, said:

I have a feeling that Skinner was a little too assured of his armor in the fight between him and Dassem, and thus it wasn't really a normal fight. He let blows land he normally wouldn't which allowed him a freer hand in attacking Dassem. It's quite clear the Swordstor is the better of the two of them, and that Greymane had a shot sans armor as well.

I mentioned that possibility, that Skinner was being lazy, and there were certainly enough comments in RotCG to show that Skinner had changed vastly. It probably would end with Skinner on top but with the Malazan universe there are no certainties

[HoosierDaddy]

You read me backwards, I think. It's fairly clear to me that Dassem (often, when referring to Dassem's skill with a sword, he is addressed as Dassword or other variations) is the better of the two of them. And any other Crimson Guard.

[Deuce]

I really don't look much into the Dassem and Skinner fight. One could say (as already stated) that Skinner relied heavily on the armor but that has nothing to do with the fact he couldn't even break Dassem's guard. So basically he didn't have to worry because of his armor which would leave him the ability to focus on the offensive yet he wasn't able to do much of anything. In fact, I would say that fight wasn't even really close. Just wasn't too impressed by Skinner at all. Even Greymane who was rather bluntly honest in the book when speaking of what he is or isn't capable of felt he could have defeated Skinner if not for the reasons stated and of course the sword he didn't use.

As for Blue versus all we have is the word of Iron Bars and the others. It would be an interesting fight. I had hoped to see more of Blues actually fighting in the book so was a bit disappointed in that. It's like we got teased in GoTM and now we get nothing else since. Something tells me though that we just might see this fight in the future since there are matters to resolve and I would assume Kazz would want to see these Guard issues handled by the...well...Guard.

[TheSurvivor]

H.D., on 24 July 2010 - 03:16 AM, said:

You read me backwards, I think. It's fairly clear to me that Dassem (often, when referring to Dassem's skill with a sword, he is addressed as Dassword or other variations) is the better of the two of them. And any other Crimson Guard.

Yeah, no, I understand what you were saying but it seems I was the unclear one. Dassem is one of the best, if not the best, swordsmen in the Malazan series. I was refering to the Crimson Guard only when I said Skinner would probably end up on top of any fight.

[TheSurvivor]

Deuce, on 24 July 2010 - 04:33 AM, said:

I really don't look much into the Dassem and Skinner fight. One could say (as already stated) that Skinner relied heavily on the armor but that has nothing to do with the fact he couldn't even break Dassem's guard. So basically he didn't have to worry because of his armor which would leave him the ability to focus on the offensive yet he wasn't able to do much of anything. In fact, I would say that fight wasn't even really close. Just wasn't too impressed by Skinner at all. Even Greymane who was rather bluntly honest in the book when speaking of what he is or isn't capable of felt he could have defeated Skinner if not for the reasons stated and of course the sword he didn't use.

As for Blue versus all we have is the word of Iron Bars and the others. It would be an interesting fight. I had hoped to see more of Blues actually fighting in the book so was a bit disappointed in that. It's like we got teased in GoTM and now we get nothing else since. Something tells me though that we just might see this fight in the future since there are matters to resolve and I would assume Kazz would want to see these Guard issues handled by the...well...Guard.

I'll agree with you on thing thing, Skinner was not impressive for the most part in RotCG.

[worry]

As far as I'm concerned, in the show vs. tell re: Skinner we've simply been told too much and shown too little. I don't think ICE quite has this balance down yet, at least in terms of some of the big baddies in the Crimson Guard (Skinner and Cowl in particular). We know Skinner's reputation, and we see him fight some of his big name peers, but we never get a moment where his skill is given perspective vs. non-peers as we do for say, Dassem or Iron Bars or the top Seguleh. In essence, the climax is pretty cool, but its weight for the reader is staked on reputation rather than direct experience.