[KallorsUnusedMoisturiser]

Morning all.

Just been skimming the RotCG forum and something popped up in my head. Now it's been a long time since I read this book, and then only once (I think my brain fuzzed itself for its own protection because of Emo Farmboy Kyle).

IIRC Skinner and Cowl go on a little jaunt to KT, the Liosan Realm/Warren. They have a little altercation with our favourite "wrong time wrong place" whipping boys (gotta love the Liosans getting it handed to them all the time), and then end up in a stone tower (it might even be in the opposite order). Anyhow, my questions are:

1) Why were Skinner and Cowl there in the first place? Can't recall.

2) What was that massisve entity that put the smackdown on them in the tower?

I didn't think this odd really until i thought about the Liosans themselves. There are no Soletaken or D'ivers in their Realm (Osserc saw to that) and they don't seem to be the type of people to let dragons wander around in their backyard. At this point Osserc is still in Kyles sword as well, so it can't be him. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

[worry]

Re #2: The timing, I think, is after the TL have already departed. I got the impression that it could actually be Father Light himself, because of the apparently awesome power and because there's some irony to the TL having visited and departed only to miss his presence. Alternatives (that I don't actually believe) could include Olar Ethil who certainly doesn't follow anyone else's rules and who has at least some possible connection to Kurald Thyrlan via Tellann. That's a stretch though. Could be another Elder God born of light...Osserc can't be the only one, right? There were a bunch flying around in Dark, apparently. Maybe that's what Grizzin Farl is, as I don't think they saw anything with a body did they? I don't remember it particularly well. But it very well could just be another unknown.

[KallorsUnusedMoisturiser]

Hmm, Father Light. That would be a subtle piece of forshadowing. But can't discuss that without spoiler tags. How do i put those on again?

This post has been edited by KallorsUnusedMoisturiser: 15 July 2010 - 10:01 AM

[champ]

KallorsUnusedMoisturiser, on 15 July 2010 - 10:01 AM, said:

Hmm, Father Light. That would be a subtle piece of forshadowing. But can't discuss that without spoiler tags. How do i put those on again?

[ spoiler ] *enter text* [ / spoiler ]

no spaces!

[waylander001]

dont think any of whats below really needs spoilered but just in case

Spoiler

Didnt Osserc's son (forget his name at min - one of shaik's generals) say somewhere in the Bonehunters that he needed to put a guardian in place to watch over Kurald Thryllan because Osserc was not present. I think he may have even considered Greyfog for this role though - and the presence in the tower seemed way more powerful than that, so maybe that's the guardian ruled out at least

This post has been edited by waylander001: 15 July 2010 - 11:02 AM

[Ain't_It_Just_]

waylander001, on 15 July 2010 - 10:44 AM, said:

dont think any of whats below really needs spoilered but just in case

Spoiler

Didnt Osserc's son (forget his name at min - one of shaik's generals) say somewhere in the Bonehunters that he needed to put a guardian in place to watch over Kurald Thryllan because Osserc was not present. I think he may have even considered Greyfog for this role though - and the presence in the tower seemed way more powerful than that, so maybe that's the guardian ruled out at least

So you think that

Spoiler

Greyfrog was the voice?

[KallorsUnusedMoisturiser]

Yes Osserc's son L'oric was searching for a new familiar, and found Greyfrog. Disappeared in TB I think it was.

TtH spoiler!!!

Spoiler

If it was FL playing swingball with the tower that they were in it would lend more credence to him turning up at the end of TtH. Although the manner of his return would then be less dramatic. Hiding out in KT is much less impressive than riding the shockwave of an exploding moon.

[waylander001]

Ain, on 15 July 2010 - 11:13 AM, said:

waylander001, on 15 July 2010 - 10:44 AM, said:

dont think any of whats below really needs spoilered but just in case

Spoiler

Didnt Osserc's son (forget his name at min - one of shaik's generals) say somewhere in the Bonehunters that he needed to put a guardian in place to watch over Kurald Thryllan because Osserc was not present. I think he may have even considered Greyfog for this role though - and the presence in the tower seemed way more powerful than that, so maybe that's the guardian ruled out at least

So you think that

Spoiler

Greyfrog was the voice?

really hard to tell but it's certainly an outside option - I mean you could construe the whole meeting and how it unfolded as being Greyfog as the voice said something along the lines of "you are not who I am waiting on" after inspecting Skinner - possibly meaning he was waiting on L'Oric coming to releive him of his Guardianship ..... but then again as said earlier, we are given the impression it is a very very (whats the buzz word "Uber") powerful being behind the voice. so if I was a betting man i'd "hedge" them on FL

can anyone remember the deal L'Oric made with the Queen of dreams in BH I think it was? was that solely to provide an escape for Leoman of the Flails - or was he the one that L'Oric had lined up for the role of Guardian? QoD certainly seems to be playing a big role in Esselmonts books so maybe she has some involvement in this?

This post has been edited by waylander001: 15 July 2010 - 03:11 PM

[KallorsUnusedMoisturiser]

Makes you wonder who he was waiting for...

[waylander001]

KallorsUnusedMoisturiser, on 15 July 2010 - 11:44 AM, said:

Makes you wonder who he was waiting for...

it does, best guesses now i supposes would be

FL - waiting on - Osserc/L'Oric?
QoD - waiting on - ?
Greyfog/Guardian/Leoman - waiting on - Osserc/L'Oric?
L'Oric - waiting on - Osserc?

hmmm yeah maybe waiting on Osserc returning to his realm then - anyone got anything better?

[KallorsUnusedMoisturiser]

I'm leaning towards FL (if it is him) waiting for Osserc. Having been out of the loop for a few hundred thousand years I would want a refresher on what's going on too. I imagine he's going to be pissed when Osserc turns up and says "Yeah about that. See, i fell asleep a couple of thousand years ago..."

[waylander001]

KallorsUnusedMoisturiser, on 15 July 2010 - 01:24 PM, said:

I'm leaning towards FL (if it is him) waiting for Osserc. Having been out of the loop for a few hundred thousand years I would want a refresher on what's going on too. I imagine he's going to be pissed when Osserc turns up and says "Yeah about that. See, i fell asleep a couple of thousand years ago..."

...... " yeah I was having sweet seductive dreams of oblivian in a place where Nachts and Deragoth roamed free and wild, where they had flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles ......"

[excession]

Wouldn't have thought Osric was the type to simply chill in some plainsman's sword - he's a power comparable to Anomander... it's possible that the voice was L'oric, waiting of Osserc. Also we've learnt something here - Osric is subtle. Given that he's Draconus' antithesis he could have annihilated Cowl. Instead he chooses to veil himself, to rejoin the world without a massacre. DOD spoiler:

Spoiler

unlike Draconus in Dust of Dreams!

[HoosierDaddy]

I'm confused at you first mentioning Rake and Osserc's comparable power, and then imputing that into Osserc vs. Draconus. It is Rake and Osserc in the prologue with the Shadow Hold. It is Rake and Osserc in the prologue of MT (supposedly) and Rake outwitting Osserc in actuality in RG's prologue.

Which makes Osserc being the antithesis of Draconus all the more surprising. Generally Rake and Osserc are considered the opposites. I'm interested in why you think otherwise.

[Abyss]

iirc, Skinner and Cowl's Excellent Adventure was to scout a way through the warrens to Unta, and yah, it was fun to see the Seneschal and his sidekicks get their butts whipped yet again.

It being Kurald Thyrllan/Liosan, some Osserc or Daddy L link to the guardian in the tower seems likely, tho SE and ICE have both made the point more than once that there are things going on over millenia that have nothing to do with any main plotline but are there nontheless. My hunch based on little more than what we sawin RCG was that the Tower was set to await FL, not Osserc, in fact Osserc may have even been the one to set the tower up as a warning system if Dad ever shows up.

@HD, you're thinking too linearly. Sure, Rake is aspected to Dark and Osserc is aspected to Light and both are sons of Mommy D, and Draconic and linked to Tiste races, but eliminate the Tiste link (more or less) and Draconus fits right into that category, only with a different 'dimension' of origin, being born in the world instead of an elder warren. And we know Drac and Rake clashed, plus in the prologue Drac doesn't exactly show warm fuzzy feelings for Osserc at the sight of the trashed Azath.

[worry]

Well, also, Draconus and Osserc are both Elder Gods with contrasting aspects (who happen to occasionally masquerade in respective Tiste forms) while Rake is a terrestrial being, a genuine Tiste Andii.

[HoosierDaddy]

worrywort, on 18 October 2010 - 07:40 PM, said:

Well, also, Draconus and Osserc are both Elder Gods with contrasting aspects (who happen to occasionally masquerade in respective Tiste forms) while Rake is a terrestrial being, a genuine Tiste Andii.

Night does not equal Dark. Night and Day, Dark and Light. But, the rest is apt.

I'm biased by the usual comparisons of Rake and Osserc, I guess.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I think maybe what excession was talking about saying Osserc and Draconus are opposites was in the prologue of the book there is talk about Osserc and Draconus trying to come up with different solutions to the same problem. Draconus had the original form of Dragnipur (that dark void at his side that he can throw things in) and Osserc was doing some experiment on the Azath he blew up in order to come up with his own asnswer because he did not accept Draconus's.

[Abyss]

worrywort, on 18 October 2010 - 07:40 PM, said:

Well, also, Draconus and Osserc are both Elder Gods with contrasting aspects (who happen to occasionally masquerade in respective Tiste forms) while Rake is a terrestrial being, a genuine Tiste Andii.

Not quite. RG and later books really throw this open.

Rake is the son of Mommy D, which means he's NOT Tiste Andii in the sense that someone born of Andii parents is.

Technically Rake is an elder god whose natural form is Tiste Andii, whereas Draconus is an Elder God whose natural form is not Tiste Andii but who can take that form.

And Night and Darkness are not the same thing, but obviously there is overlap, as with Meanas and Rashan or Tellan and Thyrllan.

And to complicate things, Iirc, Osserc states somewhere that he himself isn't Tiste Liosan, even tho the Liosan worship him and look like the same race.

[Thel Akai]

But is the child of an elder god an elder god as well? Because then the ladies Spite and Envy would be too, right? And they don't seem to be considered as such.. and certainly Envy got very deferential (eventually) when talking to K'rul.