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Sorry if I wasn't clear...I had read before, so I'm familiar with the story. I'm just doing a re-read now and didn't want to be very assertive on the later sections of the book until I'd finished.
Hounds of Shadow\Darkness
#22
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Posted 15 December 2005 - 07:11 PM
ah ok.. thanks for clearing it up 
The Deragoth or Hounds of Darkness.. that is answered in both HOC and reiterated in the Prologue to The Bonehunters.
Regarding their number.. in HoC - "Five of the Seven Protectors are dead and the sixth will not recover now that the the black beast itself has been banished"... or suchlike. The Deragoth were the Seven Protectors whom Dessimbelackis made a pact with.
One way of looking at it could be the Hounds of Shadow are shadows of the Hounds of Darkness... hehehe.... and I'm not sure the two can co-exist.
Another interesting thing is the Hounds of Darkness once had a master, but we don't know it was.. was it Dessimbelackis or not? "made a pact with" doesn't sound like he was a master, more a partner.
Whereas the Hounds of Shadow acknowledge the Tiste Edur as their masters, something I don't think even Shadowthrone would be able to over-rule...
Their origins? Osserc tells us they are of the same stench as darkness.
so.. Toll the Hounds might contain the anwers to these questions, and we only have to wait a few more years for it
The Deragoth or Hounds of Darkness.. that is answered in both HOC and reiterated in the Prologue to The Bonehunters.
Regarding their number.. in HoC - "Five of the Seven Protectors are dead and the sixth will not recover now that the the black beast itself has been banished"... or suchlike. The Deragoth were the Seven Protectors whom Dessimbelackis made a pact with.
One way of looking at it could be the Hounds of Shadow are shadows of the Hounds of Darkness... hehehe.... and I'm not sure the two can co-exist.
Another interesting thing is the Hounds of Darkness once had a master, but we don't know it was.. was it Dessimbelackis or not? "made a pact with" doesn't sound like he was a master, more a partner.
Whereas the Hounds of Shadow acknowledge the Tiste Edur as their masters, something I don't think even Shadowthrone would be able to over-rule...
Their origins? Osserc tells us they are of the same stench as darkness.
so.. Toll the Hounds might contain the anwers to these questions, and we only have to wait a few more years for it
#23 Guest_abyssdragon_*
Posted 15 December 2005 - 08:40 PM
Maybe the hounds of darkness existed once, but their souls were banished from their bodies (how :Erm: ). So that would mean the statues are tombs (prisons) for the bodies.
The HoS were just the ghosts, summoned/sheltered by Endur in the bodies of normal hounds. Only partially in this world they had less power, but were a lot harder to kill. (no ascendent had killed a HoS before Anomandre.)
Normal weapons hurt the body and are useles. Dragnipur takes the souls of the victims, that's why it worked. When the hounds jumped into the darkness it just returned them to their rightful bodies.
The HoS were just the ghosts, summoned/sheltered by Endur in the bodies of normal hounds. Only partially in this world they had less power, but were a lot harder to kill. (no ascendent had killed a HoS before Anomandre.)
Normal weapons hurt the body and are useles. Dragnipur takes the souls of the victims, that's why it worked. When the hounds jumped into the darkness it just returned them to their rightful bodies.
#24 Guest_malaz3_*
Posted 10 January 2006 - 08:44 PM
Ooh - I like it. Makes more sense than a lot of the stuff so far!
#25 Guest_bc7_*
Posted 11 January 2006 - 01:23 AM
Onrack and Trull have quite an interesting convo before the Hounds awake. Onrack claims that maybe the Tiste Edur aare the shadow betheren of the Tiste Andii, in that the former are the shadows of the Tiste Andii given life by Mother Dark. Now this may not be right in the case of the Tiste Edur, but I bet its the case with the relationship between the Hounds of darkness and Shadow. The latter are quite literally the shadows of the former.
#26
Illuyankas 
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Posted 11 January 2006 - 03:24 AM
I'm liking this idea... but where could Light fit into this?
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
#27
Monoch Ochem
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Posted 11 January 2006 - 04:53 PM
I think SE's said firmly that there are no Hounds of Light....sorry.
"We greet you Jaghut."
#28 Guest_bc7_*
Posted 12 January 2006 - 12:43 AM
I suspect that there are no Hounds of Light because Light and Dark are an anethema to each other. Whereas Shadow is just a weaker sibling of Dark.
To further pursue the question regarding the statues and their nature. The Nascent is part of the Tiste Edur Warren of Shadow. Therefore, as has been said above, the statues are indeed of the Hounds of Shadow. Buy why then did Hounds of Darkness emerge from them ?
Trull Sengar says The Hounds of Darkness are the original Hounds. Just as the Tiste Andii of Darkness are the original Tiste race. If, and it's still an if to my mind, the Tiste Edur are the shadows of Tiste Andii given life by Mother Dark and Father Light, then it follows that the Hounds of Shadow are the shadows of The Hounds of Darkness given life in the same way.
So, when Rake kills two Hounds of Shadow the following is my reading of the events that follow. The Hounds go inside the warren that is the sword Dragnipur. When in there they are freed by Ganoes Paran, and crucially they are sent into the Warren of Darkness.
This translates their shadowselves back to their original Darkselves. But why do they then go back into the statues in Dark spirit ? Because as Onrack says if you make images of your Gods then you should not be surprised if ultimately the spirit of those Gods inhabit those images,
The Statues therefore received the spirits of the two hounds in their original Dark form, ready to be freed by Onrack's sword. And they emerge as fully fledged Hounds of Darkness.
To further pursue the question regarding the statues and their nature. The Nascent is part of the Tiste Edur Warren of Shadow. Therefore, as has been said above, the statues are indeed of the Hounds of Shadow. Buy why then did Hounds of Darkness emerge from them ?
Trull Sengar says The Hounds of Darkness are the original Hounds. Just as the Tiste Andii of Darkness are the original Tiste race. If, and it's still an if to my mind, the Tiste Edur are the shadows of Tiste Andii given life by Mother Dark and Father Light, then it follows that the Hounds of Shadow are the shadows of The Hounds of Darkness given life in the same way.
So, when Rake kills two Hounds of Shadow the following is my reading of the events that follow. The Hounds go inside the warren that is the sword Dragnipur. When in there they are freed by Ganoes Paran, and crucially they are sent into the Warren of Darkness.
This translates their shadowselves back to their original Darkselves. But why do they then go back into the statues in Dark spirit ? Because as Onrack says if you make images of your Gods then you should not be surprised if ultimately the spirit of those Gods inhabit those images,
The Statues therefore received the spirits of the two hounds in their original Dark form, ready to be freed by Onrack's sword. And they emerge as fully fledged Hounds of Darkness.
#29
Monoch Ochem
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Posted 12 January 2006 - 04:09 PM
bc7 said:
The Statues therefore received the spirits of the two hounds in their original Dark form, ready to be freed by Onrack's sword. And they emerge as fully fledged Hounds of Darkness.
Logical...but now that Karsa's killed them, where are they? Have they now become Hood's puppies or do they somehow belong to the HoC through Karsa?
"We greet you Jaghut."
#30 Guest_Hawah_*
Posted 12 January 2006 - 10:11 PM
The hounds of Darkness were the first, as were the andii the first of mother darks children. And by making icons of the Deragoth the Edur trapped the hounds of darkness in the icons. Who then broke free, one by one, from there holdings and denegraded to hounds of shadow, and where also weaker in form. that is also why the hounds of shadow fear the edur.
"Ignorance honed into a weapon" said by the jaghut woman freed by karsa in the warren of tellann
"Ignorance honed into a weapon" said by the jaghut woman freed by karsa in the warren of tellann
#31 Guest_Hawah_*
Posted 12 January 2006 - 10:13 PM
By sending the hounds into the realm of darkness, Paran actually sent them back to their home, and natural states, and perforce their prisons in the nascent.
#32 Guest_bc7_*
Posted 13 January 2006 - 12:45 AM
I think the Hounds of Shadow fear the Tiste Edur simply because the Tiste Edur are the Masters of the Warren of Shadow and therefore the Masters of the Hounds of Shadow.
#33
Monoch Ochem
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Posted 13 January 2006 - 07:19 PM
I think it was The Rope who told Cutter that the Hounds recognise their former masters (or something like that) which why the Hound cowered at a command from the Edur mage. So yeah, the Edur used to be the masters of the Hounds but probably lost control of them after the rivening of Kurald Emurlahnn.
"We greet you Jaghut."
#34
Dragnipur
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Posted 18 January 2006 - 11:21 PM
If you read towards the end of HoC when L'oric enters the past world there is a part, just before he meets his father (osric) where he is chased by the hounds. However the hounds are being controlled by Edur, although SE does mention that although the hounds of shadow follow the edur they may in fact be the leaders, dominant species on this world etc etc. You all know how it is with the hounds of shadow, well at least until the deragoth came along.
Rant much...
Rant much...
#36
Folken
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Posted 30 January 2006 - 05:19 PM
@Dragnipur - The scene you're refering to involved the Deragoth and Humans, still in, for lack of a better term, caveman "form".
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#37 Guest_Faraed_*
Posted 31 January 2006 - 04:04 AM
Monoch Ochem said:
Logical...but now that Karsa's killed them, where are they? Have they now become Hood's puppies or do they somehow belong to the HoC through Karsa?
I think that they are now connected to Karsa by chains just like the souls of everything else he has killed
#38
Dravon
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Posted 31 January 2006 - 07:25 AM
If the hounds of shadow went into the statues after Paran freed them. Then how do u explain Paran saying in MOI that he could feel them at home in darkness and they had became true hounds of darkness and he could bring them forth if he so chose to?
#39
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Posted 31 January 2006 - 08:17 AM
Dravon said:
If the hounds of shadow went into the statues after Paran freed them. Then how do u explain Paran saying in MOI that he could feel them at home in darkness and they had became true hounds of darkness and he could bring them forth if he so chose to?
I hope you've read House of Chains?
Faread said:
I think that they are now connected to Karsa by chains just like the souls of everything else he has killed
If you have, you will recall why Paran can no longer bring those Hounds forth
#40
Dravon
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Posted 31 January 2006 - 10:18 PM
Yes i have read all five of the malazan books out so far (and i would lke to read NoK but i cant find it anywhere). But what i was saying was that it is possible that if Paran could sence the reborn hounds in the darkness then they might not be the ones freed from the statues. But if they were and are now chained to Karsa, well i seem to remember that these paticular hounds do not like being chained very much:D
