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just a theory here, but is it possible that the hounds of shadow and the hounds of darkness are the the same beings. we know that the hounds of darkness existed millenia ago. they then dissapered. maybe they were killed and their death, changed them into hounds of shadow. than when the two hounds of shadow in dragnupir went through the portal to Darkness(Kuraild whatever, i can't remember the spelling) they were able to restore themselves to hounds of darkness. if that was true, maybe we'll be seeing two new hounds of shadow being reborn after Karsa killed the two hounds of darkness.
slightly confusing and probobly wrong, but what do you think...
Hounds of Shadow\Darkness
#2 Guest_Starscream_*
Posted 10 August 2005 - 03:07 AM
I may be totally wrong here…but weren’t the Hounds of Darkness freed by Onrack in HoC? The two Hounds of Shadow that Paran freed from Dragnupir disappeared as I remember. Why would they appear later, trapped in stone in HoC? Also, if the Hounds of Shadow changed into Hounds of Darkness then they clearly got bigger and stronger, at least I gather from what Trull says. So I’m not sure of the connection between the Hounds of Shadow and the Hounds of Darkness. I’m sure there is a connection but I don’t know what it is yet. Perhaps someone more familiar with the text could shed some light on this.
#4
garden_rake 
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Posted 16 August 2005 - 04:51 PM
aren't the hounds of shadow natures necessarry reflection of the hounds of darkness? symmetry and balance and all that...
#5
krupke
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Posted 17 August 2005 - 07:50 AM
I thought about that 2 if their not the same beings then it would make sence.
Rake killd 2 hounds witch paran freed and witch I believe 1 of the hounds was Garath from Lady envy don't know where the dog is but i believe it farayelle(or toc the younger) who said garath can reatch a hound of shadow eye to eye
and Karsa killd 2 hounds of darkness so...
Rake killd 2 hounds witch paran freed and witch I believe 1 of the hounds was Garath from Lady envy don't know where the dog is but i believe it farayelle(or toc the younger) who said garath can reatch a hound of shadow eye to eye
and Karsa killd 2 hounds of darkness so...
#6 Guest_Scorpino_*
Posted 21 August 2005 - 01:39 PM
Hasn't Lady Envy had Garath for ages though? That's what I seemed to remember thinking when reading HoC, but that was a while ago mind.
Also wouldn't Toc or Tool recognise it if it was a Hound of Shadow?
Also wouldn't Toc or Tool recognise it if it was a Hound of Shadow?
#10 Guest_Tehol Beddict_*
Posted 22 August 2005 - 12:00 PM
I think garath is a hound of shadow which went some what astray or it was smuggled of the shadow group by lady envy..
And she is capable of doing things like that :eek:
And she is capable of doing things like that :eek:
#11
Trotts
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Posted 22 August 2005 - 05:28 PM
its possible that kelnavad/shadowthrone hasent really reached his full power, a) because he only recently ascended 
because his warren is merely the lesser child of a greater warren.
so i think its possible that envy could have done something like that
because his warren is merely the lesser child of a greater warren.so i think its possible that envy could have done something like that
#12
kayjin2
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Posted 23 August 2005 - 06:44 PM
Karsa killed two Deragoth, they were not the hounds of Darkness because at the back of the book in the list of Ascendants there are two seperate entries for the Hounds of Darkness and the Deragoth and I doubt that Desimbelackis(forgive my spelling error) could form a pact with the true Hounds of Darkness
#13
Dave
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Posted 27 August 2005 - 03:22 AM
I've just been reading HOC again and noticed something interesting. The hounds that Onrack freed are described as having coats which were 'colourless' and eyes that burned black. I always hate the description 'colourless' as it could, technically, mean black, white or grey, although I got the feeling that he meant white, in contrast to their eyes.
On the other hand, the two Deragoth at the end both had black hides. I think we're looking at two different groups of hounds here. I got the feeling the 'colourless' hounds were bigger, too. Here's the paragraph describing their first appearance after Onrack frees them, from p.323 of my HOC trade papperback:
"The beast that emerged before Onrack was as tall at the shoulder as Trull Sengar's full height. Its hide was colourless, and its eyes burned black. A broad, flat head, small ears..."
Trull Sengur, being Tiste Edur is really quite tall. This is a big hound.
I think there's some connection between the two hounds freed from Dragnipur and these two found in the Nascent, but have no good reason for that. On the other hand, just before Kalam meets Tanno, he overhears some ghosts who are talking about fighting Dessimbelackis. p.590 TPB :
"Not true, Kullsan. Five of the Seven protectors are no more. Does that mean nothing? And the sixth will not recover, now that we have banished the black beast itself."
This is a little confusing - I'm not sure if the protectors are actually black beasts, or if there is some connection between the two - but I get the feeling there were only two Deragoth remaining and oneof those had been banished. Somehow two of them turned up at the oasis, which seemed to have someting to do with the crippled god's machinations.
Basically, there's been some deliberate obfuscation by Erikson here as to how many giant hounds are running around, and where they come from. Hopefully things will be explained somewhat in BH.
On the other hand, the two Deragoth at the end both had black hides. I think we're looking at two different groups of hounds here. I got the feeling the 'colourless' hounds were bigger, too. Here's the paragraph describing their first appearance after Onrack frees them, from p.323 of my HOC trade papperback:
"The beast that emerged before Onrack was as tall at the shoulder as Trull Sengar's full height. Its hide was colourless, and its eyes burned black. A broad, flat head, small ears..."
Trull Sengur, being Tiste Edur is really quite tall. This is a big hound.
I think there's some connection between the two hounds freed from Dragnipur and these two found in the Nascent, but have no good reason for that. On the other hand, just before Kalam meets Tanno, he overhears some ghosts who are talking about fighting Dessimbelackis. p.590 TPB :
"Not true, Kullsan. Five of the Seven protectors are no more. Does that mean nothing? And the sixth will not recover, now that we have banished the black beast itself."
This is a little confusing - I'm not sure if the protectors are actually black beasts, or if there is some connection between the two - but I get the feeling there were only two Deragoth remaining and oneof those had been banished. Somehow two of them turned up at the oasis, which seemed to have someting to do with the crippled god's machinations.
Basically, there's been some deliberate obfuscation by Erikson here as to how many giant hounds are running around, and where they come from. Hopefully things will be explained somewhat in BH.
'This is my timey-wimey detector. Goes 'ding' when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces - whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've had to keep away from chickens. It's not good when they blow.'
#14 Guest_Starscream_*
Posted 27 August 2005 - 06:41 AM
Baphomet23 raises good points, however… this quote leaves me with doubts.
“Trull Sengar stared down at him. ‘I do not know if you can still hear me,’ he muttered. ‘But if it is any consolation, Onrack of the Logros, those were not Hounds of Shadow. Oh, no, indeed. They were the real ones. The Hounds of Darkness, my friend. I dread to think of what you have freed here…’” pg 447 in my book.
Now granted Trull could be wrong about the hounds being Hounds of Darkness, but Trull does not seem to be ignorant of these matters so I’m inclined to believe what he says.
Further this other line drew my attention:
“A second concussion thundered – this time behind the T’lan Imass – as the other statue exploded. Darkness descended as the twin clouds blotted out the sky, closing the horizons to no more than a dozen paces on all sides.”
This could just be nothing but this makes it sound like these Hounds are aspected with Darkness.
Originally posted by Baphomet23:
If there is a connection, I’m not denying there is, but I don’t think these are the same Hounds that were freed from Dragnipur, after all like you pointed out, they are big hounds. I don’t remember the hounds that Paran freed being described as this big. Of course I could be wrong, perhaps someone with GOTM handy could check.
“Trull Sengar stared down at him. ‘I do not know if you can still hear me,’ he muttered. ‘But if it is any consolation, Onrack of the Logros, those were not Hounds of Shadow. Oh, no, indeed. They were the real ones. The Hounds of Darkness, my friend. I dread to think of what you have freed here…’” pg 447 in my book.
Now granted Trull could be wrong about the hounds being Hounds of Darkness, but Trull does not seem to be ignorant of these matters so I’m inclined to believe what he says.
Further this other line drew my attention:
“A second concussion thundered – this time behind the T’lan Imass – as the other statue exploded. Darkness descended as the twin clouds blotted out the sky, closing the horizons to no more than a dozen paces on all sides.”
This could just be nothing but this makes it sound like these Hounds are aspected with Darkness.
Originally posted by Baphomet23:
Quote
I think there's some connection between the two hounds freed from Dragnipur and these two found in the Nascent, but have no good reason for that.
If there is a connection, I’m not denying there is, but I don’t think these are the same Hounds that were freed from Dragnipur, after all like you pointed out, they are big hounds. I don’t remember the hounds that Paran freed being described as this big. Of course I could be wrong, perhaps someone with GOTM handy could check.
#15
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Posted 27 August 2005 - 08:10 AM
I have no idea about the size of the Hounds of Shadow...well, I'm not certain, anyway. I think they were smaller than this.
I just wonder if there is any reason that Hounds of Darkness (HoD)have to be black? The Hounds of Shadow(HoS) are all different colours, so is there any reason why the HoD couldn't be white?
Which leaves the Deragoth being the black ones. So maybe Dessimbelackis was a d'ivers and, like Treach before he ascended, eventually forgot his original humanity. That doesn't quite square with what the ghosts were saying, though.
I always thought that the two HoS who escaped into Kurald Galain from Dragnipur were transformed into HoD and wound up trapped inside those statues in the Nascent. After all, the Nascent is a fragment of Kurald Emurlahn, and those statues were, presumably of the HoS. Recently, when 'talking' to Hume about this on MSN, he disagreed and mentioned that somewhere in HOC someone had said 5 of the Deragoth were killed that the two remaining somehow wound up in the Oasis in Raraku. Whilst this does appear to be the case, I don't think the Deargoth and the Hounds Onrack freed are the same. In fact, I'm pretty much certain of that much, at least.
I just wonder if there is any reason that Hounds of Darkness (HoD)have to be black? The Hounds of Shadow(HoS) are all different colours, so is there any reason why the HoD couldn't be white?
Which leaves the Deragoth being the black ones. So maybe Dessimbelackis was a d'ivers and, like Treach before he ascended, eventually forgot his original humanity. That doesn't quite square with what the ghosts were saying, though.
I always thought that the two HoS who escaped into Kurald Galain from Dragnipur were transformed into HoD and wound up trapped inside those statues in the Nascent. After all, the Nascent is a fragment of Kurald Emurlahn, and those statues were, presumably of the HoS. Recently, when 'talking' to Hume about this on MSN, he disagreed and mentioned that somewhere in HOC someone had said 5 of the Deragoth were killed that the two remaining somehow wound up in the Oasis in Raraku. Whilst this does appear to be the case, I don't think the Deargoth and the Hounds Onrack freed are the same. In fact, I'm pretty much certain of that much, at least.
'This is my timey-wimey detector. Goes 'ding' when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces - whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've had to keep away from chickens. It's not good when they blow.'
#16 Guest_Starscream_*
Posted 30 August 2005 - 05:21 AM
Originally posted by Baphomet23:
I could understand there being a connection there. The only thing is that Trull says “those were not Hounds of Shadow. Oh, no, indeed. They were the real ones. The Hounds of Darkness,” Trull’s words imply that the Hounds of Darkness are different beings from the Hounds of Shadows. In fact, the words “They were the real ones.” Seems to imply that the Hounds of Darkness were the original (what would you call them? Super hounds?) and in that case it would seem like the Hounds of Shadow weren’t transformed into Hounds of Darkness.
However I do agree that its mysterious and the whole issue with the HOS going into Kurald Galain do make even more icky. As for the Deragoth, I’m still in the dark on that one.
Quote
I always thought that the two HoS who escaped into Kurald Galain from Dragnipur were transformed into HoD and wound up trapped inside those statues in the Nascent. After all, the Nascent is a fragment of Kurald Emurlahn, and those statues were, presumably of the HoS.
I could understand there being a connection there. The only thing is that Trull says “those were not Hounds of Shadow. Oh, no, indeed. They were the real ones. The Hounds of Darkness,” Trull’s words imply that the Hounds of Darkness are different beings from the Hounds of Shadows. In fact, the words “They were the real ones.” Seems to imply that the Hounds of Darkness were the original (what would you call them? Super hounds?) and in that case it would seem like the Hounds of Shadow weren’t transformed into Hounds of Darkness.
However I do agree that its mysterious and the whole issue with the HOS going into Kurald Galain do make even more icky. As for the Deragoth, I’m still in the dark on that one.
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Posted 30 August 2005 - 08:58 AM
kayjin2 said:
Karsa killed two Deragoth, they were not the hounds of Darkness because at the back of the book in the list of Ascendants there are two seperate entries for the Hounds of Darkness and the Deragoth and I doubt that Desimbelackis(forgive my spelling error) could form a pact with the true Hounds of Darkness
Osric refers to the Deragoth as the Hounds of Darkness.
They are the seven beasts that Dessimbelackis made a pact with.
There's a bit more on that in Bonehunters prologue too..
There may well be two seperate entries for them, after all Poliel/ D'rek are one and the same... as with Fenner/Tennerock
#18
Entropic_existence
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Posted 30 August 2005 - 02:50 PM
Indeed, just finished my re-read of HoC and there are multiple times when people who are far from stupid refer to the beasts as the Hounds of Darkness and the Deragoth in the same sentence. More than enough proof for me.
As for the colourless reference, Black is the absence of all colour, not white.
As for the colourless reference, Black is the absence of all colour, not white.
#19
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Posted 15 December 2005 - 04:05 PM
I'm just going to ramble a bit, and see if whatever spews forth makes any sense...
- The two Hounds of Shadow that were killed, and then freed...jumped into Darkness, didn't they? Had their souls simply been freed, I might expect knowledge of that freedom to rest with either their former masters or with Hood if no one else. That doesn't seem to be the case, but who knows...
- Of the seven statues in the Nascent, only two seemed alive to Onrack. Coincidence? Perhaps, but I'm more inclined to think that the statues (which Trull seems to definitively identify as Hounds of Darkness) housed the freed souls of the (former) Hounds of Shadow.
- If only two of the statues were active, what happened to the other five? I'm thinking this may be a key part of understanding the relationship between all of the Hounds. Soul-swapping certainly seems possible, perhaps whoever...received the souls of the dead Hounds of Shadow saw an opportunity to begin resurrecting the (dead?) Hounds of Darkness.
- I'm only partway through a re-read of HoC, so I don't really want to comment on the Deragoth. They're referred to as the Hounds of Darkness, but I don't recall getting a clear sense of them (from my first read) as being the same as the two freed by Onrack. Perhaps the Deragoth represent the original Hounds of Darkness fallen to earth (like Fener?) but still damn powerful. The dead Hounds of Shadow were taken on by Darkness to restore the true (ascendant?) Hounds of Darkness?
Just rambling, after I finish the re-read maybe these will seem off to me. It's been a long week already, and it may just be that my mind has gone...
- The two Hounds of Shadow that were killed, and then freed...jumped into Darkness, didn't they? Had their souls simply been freed, I might expect knowledge of that freedom to rest with either their former masters or with Hood if no one else. That doesn't seem to be the case, but who knows...
- Of the seven statues in the Nascent, only two seemed alive to Onrack. Coincidence? Perhaps, but I'm more inclined to think that the statues (which Trull seems to definitively identify as Hounds of Darkness) housed the freed souls of the (former) Hounds of Shadow.
- If only two of the statues were active, what happened to the other five? I'm thinking this may be a key part of understanding the relationship between all of the Hounds. Soul-swapping certainly seems possible, perhaps whoever...received the souls of the dead Hounds of Shadow saw an opportunity to begin resurrecting the (dead?) Hounds of Darkness.
- I'm only partway through a re-read of HoC, so I don't really want to comment on the Deragoth. They're referred to as the Hounds of Darkness, but I don't recall getting a clear sense of them (from my first read) as being the same as the two freed by Onrack. Perhaps the Deragoth represent the original Hounds of Darkness fallen to earth (like Fener?) but still damn powerful. The dead Hounds of Shadow were taken on by Darkness to restore the true (ascendant?) Hounds of Darkness?
Just rambling, after I finish the re-read maybe these will seem off to me. It's been a long week already, and it may just be that my mind has gone...
#20
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Posted 15 December 2005 - 04:10 PM
Hmm.. if you haven't finished HoC - I would hold off on the questions as it will be hard to anwer them without spoilers.
so yes to the first, probably yes to the second. Can't answer the third until yu've finished the book..
the Deragoth mystery will be cleared up in later books...as promised by SE
so yes to the first, probably yes to the second. Can't answer the third until yu've finished the book..
the Deragoth mystery will be cleared up in later books...as promised by SE
