[Sucka27]

I've had Dust of Dreams for several months now but still haven't read it because I'm on a re-read of the entire series and would like to complete that first. I'm halfway through Reaper's Gale and even though Kruppe is nowhere to be found in this book, I was reading and completely struck over the head...Kruppe IS Mockra.

Let's look at the ghost (that identifies itself as Mockra) speaking to Seren in chapter 14:

- Immediately it reveals a familiarity with K'rul. The ghost references K'rul repeatedly.
- The ghost says this:

"Do I speak of the Master of the Holds? The Master of the Deck? Perhaps -- the face of the other is ever turned away -- to all but K'rul himself." So there's another and it reveals itself to no one but K'rul.
- The face being turned away could be a reference to the way no one can break through the mind of Kruppe. He misleads through excessive language, confuses, annoys.
- The ghost even mentions the "construction of language," the "game of grammar", and "twisting of semantics." All very Kruppe-like.
- Seren infers that the ghost is alive and it finds humor and speaks of the greatest deceipt being the announcement of his own existence.
- The ghost speak of the importance of dialogue, something Kruppe loves more than all else.
- The ghost frustrates Seren within moments of first speaking with her, something Kruppe is good at.

When I read this section I was hammered over the head...the is Kruppe! Wondering if this has already been talked about or discredited. I'm sticking with it until I hear proof of the contrary. :-)

Oh, let's not forget that Kruppe uses Mockra in GOTM, something I was not aware of until I researched it. That was the nail in the coffin. When you think about it, everything about Kruppe is misdirection and deception. His looks, his language, his intelligence (only the smart characters in the series don't think he's an idiot). It makes a lot of sense to me, has anyone discussed this before?

Here's a link to the passage. Click 'page 590' and it opens up.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-Si1v80jO-kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=reaper's+gale&hl=en&ei=hd4kTOa4NNOLnQf8hMW1BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=are%20any%20warrens%20alive%3F&f=false

This post has been edited by Sucka27: 25 June 2010 - 04:54 PM

[Aptorian]

That is actually a pretty cool theory.

How ever I doubt he is Mocra since Erikson has himself referred to Kruppe as mortal. But then again, to quote Rhulad "He lies!"

More likely Kruppe could be a Mortal sword or something similar of Mocra.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 25 June 2010 - 04:17 PM

[foolio]

Quote

to quote Rhulad "He lies!"

or Joe Wilson....



actually I think this is an awesome theory. I dont believe it to be true but awesome nonetheless.

[Sucka27]

foolio, on 25 June 2010 - 04:22 PM, said:

Quote

to quote Rhulad "He lies!"

or Joe Wilson....



actually I think this is an awesome theory. I dont believe it to be true but awesome nonetheless.

Yes, I suppose if Erikson verified that Kruppe is mortal that would put the kai-bosh on it. But I encourage everyone to read the section in chapter 14 of Reaper's Gale where Seren speaks with Mockra and tell me that doesn't reek of Kruppe. I'm not aware if any new developments come in Dust of Dreams because it's on my shelf unread at this point, but it would be a pretty good bomb to drop in the final chapter.

This post has been edited by Sucka27: 25 June 2010 - 04:29 PM

[D'rek]

Ha, that's a pretty neat idea. But, of course, not only has Erikson said Kruppe's mortal, he's said that not even HE knows the real deal about Kruppe...

[NikitaDarkstar]

That is an interesting theory... But yhea if Erkison has said Kruppe is mortal I doubt it's true. (But then again this is Erkison we're talking about.. anything can happen.)

[Sucka27]

NikitaDarkstar, on 25 June 2010 - 04:56 PM, said:

That is an interesting theory... But yhea if Erkison has said Kruppe is mortal I doubt it's true. (But then again this is Erkison we're talking about.. anything can happen.)

Although in the passage I'm referring to Seren says to the ghost:

"But you are not a god, are you?"

And the ghost replies:

"You need not ask that, Seren Pedac."

I'd say that's ambiguous enough to leave the possibility open. :-)

[Mark the Younger]

I am not quite to the analytical phase of anything, but I will share my thoughts. It seems obvious to me that God's are mortal. They all had to ascend, and though they may be much more difficult to kill you can kill them. So if you look at true death as being sent into oblivion rather than Hood's realm, they are all mortal. Although if anyone can clarify, isn't Mockra a warren? That being said, wouldn't that mean K'rul is all of the warrens, and the respective rulers of said warrens are merely regents? As I said, I am not very analyticaL, but these are my thoughts such as they are.

[Aptorian]

The difference between a mortal and an Ascendant/God is not their vulnerability to a sharp blade between the ribs.

Rather it is in the fact that Ascendants don't age (not in the normal sense of the word any way, they can wither a bit though), normal wounding wont kill them if they are strong enough, they'll just get better. Their longevity makes them immune to disease, probably even poisons. And they are hooked into the Deck of Dragons.

But the most important difference between mortal and god is the fact that a mortal has a finite amount of power to them. A god is on a whole different level.

[rhulad]

An interesting theory to be sure. Never really thought about it before since he hasn't ever really shown any magical ability that I can think of.

[HoosierDaddy]

Yeah he has, when he walks through the market in Toll and his "shadow" hands are out stealing incredible amounts of diverse goods and food.

I would not doubt that Kruppe is a master of Mockra, perhaps a Mortal Sword of it, but I don't think he "IS" Mockra or the "God of Mockra." He is present in Wu throughout the series, physically. He is in extreme danger all the time because of this. Besides of the fact that I think K'ruls face being turned away has to do with the Bargain and Starvald Demelain and the construction and order of the warrens themselves, not Mockra.

However, it does bring about the interesting notion of Mockra being an artificially created warren, like Shadow. The effect of the other warrens upon each other and their usage creating a kind of self-aware warren of itself.

[Daeghrefn]

Plus, he walks right through Baruk's wards, and Baruk sighs and says something like "I can never figure out how you do that."

[worry]

Mockra is said to be female, or at least feminine by voice, I think. I don't remember where. That doesn't necessarily rule out Kruppe but I don't think they're one and the same. I really like the idea that there's a strong connection there though.

[MTS]

I personally think that Kruppe acting along the same lines as the dragons with respect to the warrens (i.e. repositories of power/guardians etc.) is the absolute most he can be. Anything else (i.e. being Mockra itself) is just too far-fetched. But that's just me.

[Braden]

Thinking on this…perhaps Kruppe IS Mocra but “not yet”…remember the timeline in the books is fluid and often cyclical.



What has happened can be seen, felt, altered in the present..the future can be seen, experienced and even altered in the past and present.



Personally, I take noting for granted in these books!

[Salt-Man Z]

Kruppe is

Spoiler

the Eel!

[Abyss]

Sucka27, on 25 June 2010 - 04:28 PM, said:

Yes, I suppose if Erikson verified that Kruppe is mortal that would put the kai-bosh on it. ...

D, on 25 June 2010 - 04:41 PM, said:

Ha, that's a pretty neat idea. But, of course, not only has Erikson said Kruppe's mortal, ...

NikitaDarkstar, on 25 June 2010 - 04:56 PM, said:

That is an interesting theory... But yhea if Erkison has said Kruppe is mortal I doubt it's true. (But then again this is Erkison we're talking about.. anything can happen.)

See also "There are no Hounds of Light."

Daeghrefn, on 25 June 2010 - 10:03 PM, said:

Plus, he walks right through Baruk's wards, and Baruk sighs and says something like "I can never figure out how you do that."

In fact, Kruppe even works a Mocra mojo on Baruk at one point in GotM.

worrywort, on 25 June 2010 - 11:12 PM, said:

Mockra is said to be female, or at least feminine by voice, I think. I don't remember where. ...

I think you're thinking about when Kulp is referring to Meanas in DG, but i could be wrong. If it's Seren from RG then it's possible she's just hearing a reflection of her own frame of reference.

All of which is to say, neat theory whether it's true or not.

[Siergiej]

I thought Mockra, Meanas and Thyr are Eloth, not Kruppe. She is one of the dragons chosen by K'rul, imprisoned in realm of shadow by Anomander Rake. In Bonehunters (second chapter), Cotillion and Edgewalker have a conversation with her.

[jeni]

Cool