[Galain]

I'm here, I am going through a thorough reread of the scenes. Is there anything in particular you want to point out in the scenes Silanah which has caused your change of heart? I will admit that the Meanas and GL deaths do make me a little uncomfortable about whats going on, but I haven't seen anything yet to contradict what D'riss has been saying. However I don't know who everyone else is in the scenes so perhaps your working on some infomation I don't have.


My belief in what is going on is is based on I am confident that Omtose had lied to us with D'riss being American syndicate, as I have been in a scene with D'riss and I don't think he is American.

If you look at the comms intercept that D'riss picked up, everything flows from there. There was a fake find (Omtose saying D'riss was American syndicate), then there was two kills of Meanas and GL, and Omtose had a Lynch Proof. It all tallys up with what D'riss has been saying so far. I find it much more far fetched to believe he has somehow managed to pull this all together and convince Omtose to make a fake find.

[Ruse]

D, on 27 May 2010 - 09:14 PM, said:

Ruse, on 27 May 2010 - 08:24 PM, said:

Okay D'riss, I seriously need you to reevaluate your position about me here. Omtose is clearly blowing smoke and as soon as he gets lynched and we get a CF, you'll most likely be a firm PI, but that doesn't make you God. Innos need to always tell the truth, otherwise, mistakes are made and it can severely hurt the town. You really shouldn't just make wild assumptions about who you think I am and pass it off as fact.

So here's the deal: read the two scenes you know I am in very carefully. Make note of the descriptors. Then read the two scenes from last night that you claim I am in very carefully.

Then come back and tell me again that it is me and that you haven't made a few too many logical leaps coming to your conclusion of who I am.

I think you know you are in scenes with me and which ones, and the timing of omtose attack is very convenient, but i am no longer totally sure of you being syndicate. If we get another syndicate agent though and the game is still going your back to top of my list.

fair?

That's fair. Thanks for finally facing the facts.

The timing of Omtose's attack was not convenient for me at all, however. And it all seemed so poorly executed, I was sure he was fake-symping me. I still think he's the best lynch candidate, but if he comes up spy, I think you can guess who's going on the top of my list.

[Ruse]

Silanah, on 28 May 2010 - 02:19 AM, said:

Liosan, on 28 May 2010 - 02:11 AM, said:

D, on 27 May 2010 - 10:33 PM, said:

Get my story straight? The woman i am talking about ruse being always has her gang of thugs with her. So when a gang of thugs attack someone thats who i am going to suspectis behind it, wf. Frankly I don't care if you believe me or not silanah. I think after omtose is lynched we have one more syndicate player to go. i have had no luck discerning other memebrs of my team and think we are well behind the scoring anyway given the amount of failed actions and hinders I have suffered so I am in no position to care about faction play. I would be very surprised if the game does not end tomorrow if we complete a lynch of omtose today. I didnt hesitate when rashan was on the block, and you can't say I am not pushing omtose either when i posted that pm last night. Now you are drawing a definite conclusion about who I am so why not read the scenes from last night again. The character you think is me was clearly protecting gl and was not involved in their death. You think I could just guess that omtose had an lp and was going to kill those exact two players without being able to intercept his comms?

This strikes me as abominably wrong. We have ONE assured Syndicate dead. And, perhaps HP. Even if Omtose were scum, one more would give us 4. A team of 4 Syndicate in a game this big? Seriously?

This is a very good point. Besides, we've been ignoring recruitment all game it seems, so what assurances does anyone have that scum aren't recruiting? None whatsoever unless they want to reveal what they know.

Word. This is what I was trying to say a few days ago, and then I got accused of being a Doomsday prophet. The syndicate certainly hasn't been doing a lot of killing, so I think a significant amount of recruitment is a viable scenario.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Ok, this is an interesting argument going on.

I have no doubt that D'riss is feeding us some amount of bullshit, but I have serious issues with the hissy fit Omtose threw when he came on thread. His defense was to be pissy, and that has all the markings of a scum who has his ass in the trap with no room to maneuver. If D'riss was playing us so hard, surely Omtose could have come up with something constructive to make us question D'riss' information? D'riss was early onto the Rashan lynch as well, right? He's not PI exactly, but he has vetted himself fairly well.

Sil, you're not entirely wrong - I'm sure D'riss isn't playing his entire hand, but you are arguing emphatically enough to either a) know something you need to share or b ) have been turned somehow.

If I had to pick a likely scenario, I would say that Omtose is indeed scum, but D'riss doctored part of that communication to cover his own role in the double NK last night. I'm not sure how it worked out exactly - probably based on other intercepted information - but I agree that a syndicate who can order 2 players to their deaths seems wildly overpowered.

[Fener]

the question becomes: how many recruitment scenes have we seen?

plus, people, if we have info Tellan is syndicate, why is coming out NOW?

on top of which, we are saying the find is wrong? wtf? I want to hear more about Tellan before I vote Omtose.

although I'm now almost convinced that Omtose is scum (and shocked at how overpowered he was--seriously, if all syndicate are like him, we're fucked), I think we should use the day to get more info before we lynch away.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Ruse, on 28 May 2010 - 03:14 AM, said:

Silanah, on 28 May 2010 - 02:19 AM, said:

Liosan, on 28 May 2010 - 02:11 AM, said:

D, on 27 May 2010 - 10:33 PM, said:

Get my story straight? The woman i am talking about ruse being always has her gang of thugs with her. So when a gang of thugs attack someone thats who i am going to suspectis behind it, wf. Frankly I don't care if you believe me or not silanah. I think after omtose is lynched we have one more syndicate player to go. i have had no luck discerning other memebrs of my team and think we are well behind the scoring anyway given the amount of failed actions and hinders I have suffered so I am in no position to care about faction play. I would be very surprised if the game does not end tomorrow if we complete a lynch of omtose today. I didnt hesitate when rashan was on the block, and you can't say I am not pushing omtose either when i posted that pm last night. Now you are drawing a definite conclusion about who I am so why not read the scenes from last night again. The character you think is me was clearly protecting gl and was not involved in their death. You think I could just guess that omtose had an lp and was going to kill those exact two players without being able to intercept his comms?

This strikes me as abominably wrong. We have ONE assured Syndicate dead. And, perhaps HP. Even if Omtose were scum, one more would give us 4. A team of 4 Syndicate in a game this big? Seriously?

This is a very good point. Besides, we've been ignoring recruitment all game it seems, so what assurances does anyone have that scum aren't recruiting? None whatsoever unless they want to reveal what they know.

Word. This is what I was trying to say a few days ago, and then I got accused of being a Doomsday prophet. The syndicate certainly hasn't been doing a lot of killing, so I think a significant amount of recruitment is a viable scenario.

Well, from a gameplay standpoint it would make sense to have syndicate with the ability to corrupt and turn spies. There are probably non-corruptable roles mixed with corruptable. I think I'll go back and read scenes again, and see if any of them might stand out as recruitment.

[Silanah]

Galain, on 28 May 2010 - 03:02 AM, said:

I'm here, I am going through a thorough reread of the scenes. Is there anything in particular you want to point out in the scenes Silanah which has caused your change of heart? I will admit that the Meanas and GL deaths do make me a little uncomfortable about whats going on, but I haven't seen anything yet to contradict what D'riss has been saying. However I don't know who everyone else is in the scenes so perhaps your working on some infomation I don't have.

My belief in what is going on is is based on I am confident that Omtose had lied to us with D'riss being American syndicate, as I have been in a scene with D'riss and I don't think he is American.

If you look at the comms intercept that D'riss picked up, everything flows from there. There was a fake find (Omtose saying D'riss was American syndicate), then there was two kills of Meanas and GL, and Omtose had a Lynch Proof. It all tallys up with what D'riss has been saying so far. I find it much more far fetched to believe he has somehow managed to pull this all together and convince Omtose to make a fake find.

First of all, D'riss didn't 'convince' Omtose to do anything. The way I read it, Omtose outed D'riss as Syndicate and then D'riss OMGUS'd him with a PM (the veracity of which has yet to be confirmed). Regardless of alignment, we are certain that Meanas killed GL, and D'riss killed Meanas. That in itself is suspect, since both CF'd as spies. One is clearly scum, and are we absolutely certain it's Omtose? Not by a mile, in my mind.

Night 5 our scarred, moustachioed, bullpup-toting and knife-fighting guy goes after a woman and is stopped by her henchman while she gets away. I have no trouble believing this was D'riss, considering his one-mindedness concerning women with henchmen. This man I'm virtually certain is American - he is described as a commando multiple times, which is more an American term than Euro, I think. At least, I've only heard it describing American troops and occasionally SAS as well, but the bullpup gives it away.

D'riss had said at least twice now that he has been the target of multiple hinders and failed actions, and this man has been thwarted at least twice. The (two now) women who D'riss has said are Ruse I know for a fact are not Ruse (although I imagine he would be one [I've seen three so far]), and D'riss has attacked Ruse based on this point multiple times, despite it clearly being a different person described. Omtose states he got an information through a lover, which if finds are retroactively updated as abilities are gained, as Spite mentioned, means that someone did a find on D'riss (likely Ruse), and D'riss has been gunning for them ever since. That scenario makes sense for scum - silence all finders before they talk.

D'riss put forward his latest case on Ruse before day 6 had even started. I pulled apart his case, as it made little sense, even if we assumed smoking lady=scum, and Omtose soon revealed that D'riss was American Syndicate. I was like, fair enough. Then after the fact D'riss shows up with a PM that says 'I will do a fake find, I have an LP and I will kill said people'. On the outset, it looked fairly plausible. We were fairly sure Omtose was the man in the car at that stage, and since most people take it as a given now he is scum (although I fail to see why), the fake find made sense. Knowing about the LP adds nothing to its plausibility - I know the BP/LP counts of some people I know are innocent (and so am I), and since the man has 'obviously' known who Ruse is from the get go, he obviously has a source of information besides his own powers.

Since this man described actually killed Meanas makes it even more suspicious, since the PM clearly states 'I will kill Meanas and GL'. Omtose clearly didn't (arguably by proxy), but then how could he have known that info? GL was the spokeswoman, she could have told him. OR the Chinese have their own comms a la the Americans in the first game and D'riss is telling a half-truth in that he is intercepting comms. Or maybe something else - that's the only bit I can't fathom, is how he got the info. Omtose apparently ordered GL's death, so he would know that, and then he could kill Meanas himself.

And it makes sense. If Omtose has an LP (and he did), we are much more likely to think that Omtose was lying and D'riss was telling the truth (even if they both were). We waste a lynch on Omtose, hoping it will fail, two innocents are downed, people gather up their pitchforks and lynch someone who the scum knows is inno, and the scum get another day to kill.

And until now, D'riss has been strutting up and down the thread, thinking he's all that, while no one has even questioned it, when it's definitely possible that he is lying. That people are touting his word as gospel is ridiculous. He even downplays his own advantage to me after I question it.

Now, I've probably left something out there, but it flows fairly nice to me. Now, I'd like to see the info that states with full certainty that Omtose is scum. If it's only D'riss and his 'comms', then it's his word against Omtose's, in my mind. The PM is definitely fakeable, given the right amount of info. Until then, he's just the Chinese man in the car.

[Fener]

last game, head Syndicate had a 1-time ability to recruit someone.

Omtose seems A LOT like head honcho right now, but he has no recruiting powers.

[Fener]

last post was at Shelly above

[Fener]

anyone else here?

[Silanah]

Sheltatha Lore, on 28 May 2010 - 03:27 AM, said:

Ok, this is an interesting argument going on.

I have no doubt that D'riss is feeding us some amount of bullshit, but I have serious issues with the hissy fit Omtose threw when he came on thread. His defense was to be pissy, and that has all the markings of a scum who has his ass in the trap with no room to maneuver. If D'riss was playing us so hard, surely Omtose could have come up with something constructive to make us question D'riss' information? D'riss was early onto the Rashan lynch as well, right? He's not PI exactly, but he has vetted himself fairly well.

Sil, you're not entirely wrong - I'm sure D'riss isn't playing his entire hand, but you are arguing emphatically enough to either a) know something you need to share or have been turned somehow.

If I had to pick a likely scenario, I would say that Omtose is indeed scum, but D'riss doctored part of that communication to cover his own role in the double NK last night. I'm not sure how it worked out exactly - probably based on other intercepted information - but I agree that a syndicate who can order 2 players to their deaths seems wildly overpowered.

Oh, I have issues with Omtose's defence (or lack thereof), don't get me wrong. Omtose barely responded, and I voted him for it, if you'll recall (Galain quoted it). But don't mistake me for saying I think Omtose isn't scum when I can see just as much wrong with D'riss' story as Omtose's. If my scenario is refuted well enough that I am (relatively) convinced of D'riss veracity, then I will vote Omtose, which I've said numerous times. The thing is I have had little reason to question Omtose until now, and now I have multiple reasons to. And it all started with Omtose's reveal of him.

What I know is that Ruse is definitely not who D'riss says he is. I know one other person who has hired help, but I can't really reveal what that is because it will show what scene I was in.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Quote

She raised her glass of champagne at the two who were standing there with her. “To a successful deal, friends, to a successful deal.” They clinked glasses, and she looked at the time on her elegant silver watch. “I’ve got to go. I’ll talk to you tomorrow, I assume?” they nodded

This scene on Night 4 sounds like a possible recruitment deal.

----------------------------------

Somehow I ge the sense that this old man is the key to the D'riss/Omtose situation.

Quote

The old man leaned back in the thick white leather of the backseat of the Mercedes, and looked sternly at the other two sharing the cabin with him, a bald man and a young woman with features as fine as porcelain. “Listen, you youngsters. You should be grateful that I have accepted responsibility for you and our mission. If I didn’t, the two of you would probably be dead already. Now, here’s what I want you to do. We will soon arrive in Kyoto. When you are there, you go to a simple hotel – and no sharing rooms! – check in, and you wait there for my call. No decadent foreign spy will search in such a place.”
He sniffed, then shouted: “driver! Drop these two at the nearest busstop. They can find their way. Then to my hotel. Call my secretary and servant and tell them that I do not want to be disturbed until after dinner.”

Night 3

Quote

He sat down opposite the old man, the pirate trousers he wore displaying the vine tattoo that crept from his foot to his knee. He slowly removed his sunglasses, breathed on them. “Time to talk,” he said. “Or so I think.”
The girl in the bright pink silk dress translated.
“Decadent pig, what can you offer me?”
She translated the first part as ‘sir.’
“if you can look past your pride, you’ll see there’s information to be traded.”
She faithfully translated.
“What, on how many women you bedded? Back home I just need to snap my fingers!”
She hesitated, then gave up and said it straight.
“I’ve just made out with your secretary. I bet she’d tell me anything I want to know. Instead, I come to you, for honest dealings. So, will we deal, or do I go behind your back?”
She reddened, and stuttered that he had access to the information he wanted, regardless of her boss’ co-operation.
“We’ll talk,” the old man said.

Quote

The phone creaked. “We need to discuss some things,” the old man said. “I have decided you are loyal to our nation, and as such, have selected an honourable task for you.”
The sunburnt man did not answer. “What, cat got your tongue?! There will be canings if you do not obey, young man!”
“through hardship comes wisdom,” the other replied, “but I will do as you ask, sir.”

Day 6


That old man seems to be able to strike deals and order others around. I wonder if anyone has something more definative to share about these particular situations.

[Sheltatha Lore]

You know what, I could believe Omtose is the Chinese leader - the bald guy. And it would make some sense for this old bat to have an LP. All that "western decadence" hailing back to old Maoism. Omtose was identified as Chinese way back by Korv.

D'riss as scum, using the masses to off possibly the most powerful of the Chinese spys - I can believe that.

[Fener]

hmm, interesting digs, Shelly.

though the last one seems more of an order. the way the other responds is decisively Chinese, which reinforces the idea that old man is a Chinese bigwig.

the scene before it (with the secretary) sounds a lot like a recruitment attempt, with the other guy striking me as American..

[Fener]

Sheltatha Lore, on 28 May 2010 - 04:03 AM, said:

You know what, I could believe Omtose is the Chinese leader - the bald guy. And it would make some sense for this old bat to have an LP. All that "western decadence" hailing back to old Maoism. Omtose was identified as Chinese way back by Korv.

D'riss as scum, using the masses to off possibly the most powerful of the Chinese spys - I can believe that.

that's the impression I got from reading his role PM, too, to be honest. the names of his powers were removed by the mod, but I I didn't see any links to Syndicate, and a lot of Chinese benefits.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Achieve majority by any means necessary is the scum VC.

The Chinese have been whacked pretty damn hard. If this were a movie, I would say it looks like the scum have eliminated the Chinese underlings to finally get to the leader. Except that doesn't really fit the VC.

[Galain]

Hmm... now I am starting to doubt what I thought, there's seems to be enough out there now.

I am trying to figure out, is there a scenario where both D'riss and Omtose are non scum? Or at this point, one of them has to be scum?

[Fener]

there would be some serious convoluted lies involved if both of them are innos.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Well, I thought about that as well. I thought, maybe the information they have received, having been filtered by Path-Shaper has just confused them into thinking they know more than they actually do.

Except I then thought that the deaths of Meanas and Galayn Lord AS PREDICTED makes it seem to me that one of the other has to be scum. It's the death prediction coming true that makes me think scum is involved.

One other possibility has just occurred to me. I have to go back and read D'riss' reveal.

[Fener]

damn, 7 people are on, I really need to go to bed.