[Hugin & Munin]

Sheltatharei.

Sheltatha Lore, on 11 May 2010 - 10:09 PM, said:

Did you choose me for this role? I mean, first my role is Japanese, and second you bring up Takeda Shingen (who was my avatar just a short time ago)

Anyways, I'm looking forward to this game, and I've read the rules (twice). It's going to be interesting. I didn't play in the first one though, so I have only a rudimentary idea what to expect.

One question - my level is currently zero, correct? That means I don't have any abilities at all for the moment right?

I'll admit that role selection wasn't entirely random.
And yes, your level and that of everyone else is currently 0.

[Hugin & Munin]

PBockra - Sasha Olievova, ripping his PM and the VCs apart.

Mockra, on 11 May 2010 - 08:48 PM, said:

Was re-reading Spycraft 1 (got through Day 1 on-thread, was working on it in spoilers) when I saw this message come in.

Read up the Spycraft 2 intro since you posted it. Already in love. There's a part of me that pangs to be a part of the moderating team again, but another part of me really wants to explore what it's like to play in this kind of game.

Haven't finished reading my role PM yet, but I did have the following early things to say, based solely upon the Victory Conditions

Chinese look like a big faction (5-6)... largest level, most votes, ability granting. No real analogue for them from the previous game, maybe Americans are the closest.

Americans look extremely tactical, not entirely unlike they were in the previous game... probably a medium faction (4-5), that 10-pointer looks brutal for them since you need 3 every time you do an op. Looks like they're info-heavy like the Russians from game 1, per 7 and 2pt conditions.

EU is hard to classify. Kind of a hodgepodge like the Brits of old. A lot of lover and kill-proof stuff in there. Likely medium small faction (3-4).

Japanese are almost another scum faction and look like a new French faction. Vigs abound, they also need to get hit by harmful actions, pretty interesting mechanic there. Likely a very small faction (2-3).

Russians 2 look a lot like Russians 1, with a lot of 'harmful' activities. I know that encompasses more than guarding this time around. Looks medium sized (4-5), but then again the 3 pointer looks BRUTAL on a large team. Maybe they're small (2-3) with a lot of multi-target abilities?

Syndicate are going to be a nice mixture of all of the factions... I wonder if they're going to be infiltrating our number like the other scum did?

Finally, I read that I'm a Russian Spy... Russians did win the last game, so hopefully I can make the Motherland proud with a repeat performance!

Now, to actually READ the role...

[Hugin & Munin]

Hugin & Munin, on 11 May 2010 - 09:48 PM, said:

Mockra, on 11 May 2010 - 09:24 PM, said:

Level 0:
Driven (H, Hinder): passive. You are immune to Recruitment and to all Harmful actions by other Russian Spies.

I had a feeling there would be more recruitment in this game, especially since it never ended up succeeding in the previous one... good to know I'm loyal to the cause! Also, excellent side-effect there, I can ignore my team's actions safely (which means I shouldn't be afraid to hide my faction).

Also, shouldn't this be a (B, Proof) or (B, Aid) ability?

It messes with other players abilities, hence it is H, Hinder.

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Infiltrator (B, Aid): passive. you come up as Syndicate on Syndicate finds, and you come up as a Spy on finds by spies. Any additional effects of finds are resolved based on the way you are represented – if this results in lover connections or other forms of communication, you are informed of the alignment of the player who targeted you.

When you say "the way you are represented" do you mean something like an alignment-find would find my normal alignment, my name would find my normal name etc? Basically, my faction is all that's masked? BTW, I love the secondary effect here, reminds me of last game where m45 kept making lover connections and faking who he was, but that could backfire if tried against me by a member of the Syndicate.

It is alignment only. If a scum does a Syndicate/Spy find on you, the result is Syndicate. If it is a Spy doing that find, you come up as Spy. So, say one player has an ability that allows all Spies to talk through H&M, you'd be amongst them. The same if a Syndicate player could do that, or a Syndicate player being able to form lover relationships with those he does finds on and are Syndicate, etc. It's a bit clunky wording but I couldn't get it better.

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I think this means I should spam Day 1 and try to get lovered-up... that's what happened to Vengey last time.

Level 1:
Subtle Sabotage (H, Hinder): day only. silence a target player. He may not post (or vote/ change his current vote) for the duration of this phase and may not use abilities tagged with (B, Talk).

Ahahahaha, used correctly, I can totally remove a chance of leveling for the day by hitting the biggest spammer.

Level 2:
Thorn In Your Side (H, Guard): day/night action. If used at Night, Thorn In Your Side is considered to be Instant. Target a player. Choose Harmful, Neutral or Beneficial. The player is guarded when using any ability of the chosen type for the duration of the next phase (day if used at night, night if Thorn In Your Side is activated by day).

This looks like one of the keys to our 2-point victory condition, but I'd have to stay on the same person twice in a row. I don't think there is, but is there a restriction on using this as a Night action (obviously declaring so during the Day), and then at the start of the next day, immediately using it again as a Day action to stop them the next night?

none at all.

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Could be hard to get a lot of mileage out of this one since it's difficult to predict lynch and NK candidates.

Wetworks (B, Aid): passive. You can use any number of harmful abilities you possess (Sabotage Communications, Stranglehold, Strangulation, Traitor Betrayed) as a single action on a player of your choice, as long as the player is either targeted by Thorn in Your Side or guarded by another Russian player.

OK, scratch what I just said about the above ability being difficult. This is an absolute BEAST ability. I could, late game, hit someone with 5 abilities at once (Thorn + the other 4).

Can I safely assume that Sabotage Communications was renamed to Subtle Sabotage?

oops, yes.

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Not sure how I'd know they were guarded by another Russian unless that Russian and I became buddy-buddy.

Also, should I assume that I can only use the extra abilities on the afflicted player during the phase in which the player is affected by Thorn in Your Side, and not the phase in which they are targeted by it?

correct. And yes, this is a beast of an ability.

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Level 3:
Dirty Laundry (N, Find): day/night action. Do a find on a target player. If the player is a Russian, you discover whether he is Spy or Syndicate and automatically become a lover with that player, regardless of the result of your find. If the player is not a Russian, you learn his or her nationality and role description. The next time you use Dirty Laundry on that player, you learn whether he is Spy or Syndicate.

Dangerous ability since Syndicate will not trust anybody that claims to be on the same team... but absolutely key to figuring out who else my team is guarding. Looks like the Russians have a bunch of guards again, afterall.

If I hit a non-Russian, I won't become a lover with that individual, correct? Even if I do it a second time to find the faction?

Dirty Laundry only allows you to create lover bonds with Russians.

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Stranglehold (H, Hinder): Day/night action. target a player. The first time you target him, you learn all his non-passive level 0 and 1 ability names (but not types). Choose one of these, which cannot be used for the next 2 phases. The player will be informed that he cannot use this ability.
The second time you target him with this action, you learn all his non-passive level 2, 3 and 4 ability names (but not types). Choose up to two of his abilities, which cannot be used for the next 2 phases. The player will be informed that he cannot use this ability.
On the third and any subsequent times you target that player, you remove one of his lowest level active abilities, permanently. The mods will select the ability based on the player's role PM and go from top to bottom.

Core ability. I see now that I'm a giant disabling character (I thought 'Insider' might indicate I was more information-based). Not sure if this will be that useful to use 3+ times, although I do remember Bent getting his killing ability removed from him last game by Sir Thursday... so that's always something to consider for the late game, heh heh.

Then again, since this is guaranteed to get used with every single Thorn, not really any downside to it

Level 4:
Strangulation (H, Kill): Limited number of uses (2). Day/night action. Target a player you have targeted with Dirty Laundry at least once. If he comes up as a Spy on Dirty Laundry, he is guarded for the this phase and the next 2 phases (day, Night, day or night, day, night). If the player shows up as Syndicate on Dirty Laundry, you kill him instead. If he does not die, he loses 1 BP per phase until he has no bullet proofs left, then he dies.
If you do not know whether the player is Syndicate or Spy, he is treated as if he is a Spy.
Strangulation counts as a Harmful ability for the purpose of victory conditions for every phase during which it is active.

Hoooleeee sheeeeit. Seriously? Wow, Syndicate killer, that's insane... and I love the BP-drain, that's crazy. What happens if I die after I active this ability but before the Syndicate player runs out of BPs? I assume he lives.

And DAMN a three-consecutive phase guard? That seems overpowered... I wonder what else is out there.

I do have a question. Does the guard effect from Strangulation allow me to use several abilities on the player per Wetworks (which indicates the player must be targeted by Thorn or guarded by another Russian player)?

another =/= you, so no. But you know the guy is guarded and can happily go after someone else.

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Level 5:
Traitor Betrayed (H, Guard): day/night action. Limited number of uses (1). Target a player you have used a Harmful ability on. You learn whether the player is Spy or Syndicate, regardless of that players abilities. If the player is a Spy, you then guard the player until you take a different action or until you are guarded, whichever happens first. If you die before either happens, the player continues to be guarded. If the player is Syndicate, he loses 1 ability every time he posts, starting with his highest level ability. Once he has no abilities remaining, he dies, unless you die before he runs out of abilities.

lmao... oh man, I would shit a break if I were a Syndicate hit by this. It's definitely not that useful against a Spy (unless I'm about to die, maybe, to get a bunch of free actions for the rest of the game), but against a Syndicate player it's insane.

So basically, I'm a guard-heavy, Syndicate-killing, mother fucker. Level 2 and 3 are absolutely key for me to hit, 4 and 5 are not nearly as important until a bit later in the game due to their limited usages and relatively specific goals (disabling Syndicate).


Well done, Tap!

glad you like it

[Hugin & Munin]

Mockra, on 11 May 2010 - 09:30 PM, said:

My biggest worry is that I appear to be a glass cannon. I don't have any protection mechanisms other than from my teammates, maybe I'll get granted some as my team levels up like in Spycraft 1?

[Hugin & Munin]

Hugin & Munin, on 11 May 2010 - 10:16 PM, said:

Mockra, on 11 May 2010 - 10:13 PM, said:

Well I know you've done a fantastic job for one reason.

Ever since you sent out the role PMs and posted the setup, the board has gone publicly DEAD. Not a single post since your Path-Shaper posts.

Everyone is clearly eagerly reading their many abilities and trying to make sense of it all. We have a good mix of returning players from Spycraft 1 and new players who weren't in it.

I see myself as being a major cog to getting points on the team.

Seriously, look at this:

15 points: One spy of your team must survive the game.

Standard.

10 points: Having used more Harmful abilities than any other team (Americans, Chinese, EU, Japanese, Syndicate) in the game.

Hello, that's me!

7 points: Having targeted more people with night actions on an average per player than any other team (Americans, Chinese, EU, Japanese, Syndicate) in the game.

Hello, me again! (Also, this is a heavy hint to me that we're on a smallish team... the per-player-average would be really hard to hit unless the other teams had few harmful actions or large teams... and I am pretty sure the Japanese are small with harmful abilities).

5 points: Affecting at least 6 players during a single phase with Harmful abilities.

I can do 3 easily in a single phase, if it's Day and I prepared a thorn the previous night phase (Thorn + Sabotage + Stranglehold). If I want and situationally, I can add in a Strangulation and/or Traitor Betrayed, although it seems unnecessary to do both unless I know we can't hit 6 in a single phase without it.

3 points: All Russian spies must be alive at the end of the game.

(Another hint that we must all be alive... kind of reminds me of the French in this regard, so I'd have to assume we're small and someone can protect the members of the team either passively or actively).

2 points: 2 points for every time a player is unable to take an action during 2 consecutive phases as a result of the abilities of one or more Russian players, with a maximum of 10 points. No single player can contribute more than 2 points to this victory condition.

I pretty much can do this on my own for all 10 points, lol.

I do have another question for you:

Traitor Betrayed says: "Target a player you have used a Harmful ability on." Does that mean "in the past" or can that include the current phase too (meaning, I can Thorn them and Traitor Betrayed them in the same turn without having done anything to them in the past). The language makes me think it's the former...

Aye, you must have targeted the player before the phase in which you use Traitor Betrayed. See it as a way to slightly restrict the power.

[Hugin & Munin]

Mockra, on 11 May 2010 - 10:19 PM, said:

For Traitor Betrayed, that was a logical step, to me. You definitely want to be restricting an ability like that.

For Thorn in Your Side + Sabotage, there is a sick person inside of me that would like to take one person and basically silence them for the entire game... lol. Every night I Thorn them and add a Sabotage so that the next day they are quiet

But that would just be mean!

It would be bad considering the 2 point condition

[Hugin & Munin]

Hugin & Munin, on 11 May 2010 - 10:25 PM, said:

Mockra, on 11 May 2010 - 10:17 PM, said:

Also, note to self, I think the key to determining when to use Dirty Laundry over Thorn in Your Side is going to be what phase it is.... Thorn's maximum usage comes in the Day time due to getting to add in Sabotage.

If I use Thorn in Your Side, the language indicates that all abilities are used "as one action," so would I be declaring, at the time of the Thorn, the additional abilities that are used and all of their targets, or can I elect to do that during the phase when the Thorn is active, selectively (like, if I want to Sabotage someone with a Thorn, is that person going to be Silenced the entire Day or will it only 'activate' when I wish it to?).

First off, if using Wetworks, all abilities target the same target as Thorn, or, if you do not use Thorn, all abilities target the same player that must be guarded by another Russian player, so you can't spread them around.
All actions are resolved at the same time (hence the 'one action', so you can't give them separate timings or activations.

[Hugin & Munin]

Giles - Serc:

Hugin & Munin, on 11 May 2010 - 09:21 PM, said:

Serc, on 11 May 2010 - 08:45 PM, said:

Hmmm, interesting. For the I burned your file thing, my CF only becomes syndicate once i use it right?

yes, and on finds too.

[Hugin & Munin]

Hugin & Munin, on 11 May 2010 - 10:34 PM, said:

Serc, on 11 May 2010 - 10:24 PM, said:

Just had a thought. Would it be better if i did it on my normal account rather than mafia alt? That way i wont be giving away who i am.

Oh and good for the burning the files thing. I think my main problem in this game is going to be convincing lovers that im not scum :S

Sure, that would work, too!

[Hugin & Munin]

Shelthatha Dude:

Olar Ethil, on 11 May 2010 - 10:19 PM, said:

I've been waiting for this game since the last one. Just hope to put up more of a fight this time. Looking forward to the game though. At first glance my abilities look pretty good. The martini one is a little dicey, I'll have protection from my lovers, but based on the last game... my lovers arent the ones I need to worry about.


That being said I do have a 1 NK BP which will help me a lot, and if there is one thing I know how to do, it's stay out of a lynch. So, I'll just post like crazy, make tons of lover connections, and start strategically using guards towards the end of the game. I'll have to have a little luck to find my compatriots, but this is an information role, and I feel I play a ton better with info. ( who doesnt ) So even failed EU connection will be good for manipulating lovers and trying to get info.

All in all I give my role a 9/10 I can pretty much do it all including Kill. Would be 10/10 with a lynch proof...its not to late to throw one in

Looking forward to your game, imo yours always turn out the best. And that makes me a happy 00Panda

[Hugin & Munin]

Gamesixty:

Gamelon, on 11 May 2010 - 08:37 PM, said:

Some questions:

1.) According to the "Iron Man" rule, does that mean that I can select 1 day and 1 night action per day, or do I have to pick?

2.) I vaguely remember reading something that all Americans could communicate via radio or something but can't find it anywhere ... can I get a confirm / deny?

Thanks.

1. one day action, one night action. You just have to submit the night action during the day as well

2. there was a radio in Spycraft 1. Whether or not there is communication in this game, who knows? However, for several of your abilities you have to target an American, so unless I'm particularly cruel, there may or may not be a way for the Americans to talk.

This post has been edited by Hugin & Munin: 11 May 2010 - 10:38 PM

[Hugin & Munin]

Morgypuss:

Hugin & Munin, on 11 May 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

Hood, on 11 May 2010 - 09:33 PM, said:

Tapper, darling, did you just make me a symp god?

yes.

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I don't know what to say.

That a first?

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You write that at lvl 2 I'll be able to communicate with anyone identified as syndicate through my find power. Does this count also for when I give the power to others and they find syndicate players (fake or real)? In addition, is the mode of communication of the alt to alt variety, or does it go anonymously through H&M?

Only if you do the find, you do not learn the result if you give the ability to someone else.
If you start communications with the player, it is as full-fledged lovers, not through H&M.

[Hugin & Munin]

More Morghy:

Hugin & Munin, on 11 May 2010 - 09:50 PM, said:

Hood, on 11 May 2010 - 09:43 PM, said:

That sounds good. I'd assume that if I give the find to someone else it will not be capable of creating a lover bond that I am not part of. <br><br>Hm, this role looks damned challenging, if a lot of fun. Problematically, I'll be going back home to Norway on the 24th. Hopefully there wont be too much going on during that 16h or so time span. There are some exams too, but I can deal with that <img src="http://forum.malazanempire.com/public/style_emoticons/Malazan/p.gif" class="bbc_emoticon" alt="">

Don't worry, we can give you an extension. Also, since it is a forced holiday, i may well extend the weekend break to include the 24th, as I think those who play at work won't have access other than through their phones.

[Hugin & Munin]

PB explodes when he sees the backstory:

Mockra, on 11 May 2010 - 09:34 PM, said:

OH INTERESTING. This heavily hints that the Syndicate may think I'm on their team. Wow, that would be an absolute nightmare for them...! It would also explain my 'Insider' role quite a bit...

WOW, a fucking spy against the scum, that is walking a SERIOUSLY thin line.

I wonder how he will react once the scum starts talking

[Hugin & Munin]

Obdilain:

Korvalain, on 11 May 2010 - 09:30 PM, said:

So I am playing myself?

Shit I wasn't supposed to tell you that. Stand By.

will do

[Hugin & Munin]

HD/Mockra:

Hugin & Munin, on 11 May 2010 - 08:56 PM, said:

Liosan, on 11 May 2010 - 08:37 PM, said:

First things first. Have received both Role and Apperance PMs, Tapper.

The key for me will be to get to level 1. At that point, I should be able to play the game with my normal style sans worry. It's good that what I view to be my best abilities are within the first two levels. I won't have to wait until later on in the game to be at my highest efficacy.

Question on Hammer: How obvious will it be when I use this ability? Or, will it even be shown on thread? Do I simply PM you "Hammer - *player name*" and this person gets immediately lynched? Or do I actually vote and then PM you that I am using "Hammer."

You just send us the use of the ability, and we end day and resolve the lynch. It will feature your character killing the lynchee, but it won't be massively obvious. Of course, depending on the timing, people may go crazy but I guess it will be me and Venge having to deal with the anger and WTFs rather than you. Mind you, this was an ability I rather doubted whether or not to put in the game

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Question on Sickle: Will I be informed of who is being affected by this ability? If so, I could strategically use it to narrow down a particular team by ability type.

Nope.

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White, Blue, and Red: Please god get me to end game and make the number of players needed to lynch me impossible to achieve.

hehe, it's a good one to have, no?

[Hugin & Munin]

Rashan-Silencer:

Path-Shaper, on 11 May 2010 - 10:04 PM, said:

Rashan, on 11 May 2010 - 09:52 PM, said:

Alright, I figure you guys probably won't welcome PMs just yet, (and I also figure since this is like for SH lolz, PS is the account to send it to), but I'd just like to say:
THANK YOU!

Not only am I scum - YES - I have a kickass character of DOOM. I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm not the most badass dude on the block, but I certainly feel like it about now. Fucking awesome character/role, guys. Huge debt.
I think I can make the effort to play with this character. XD

Also, a bit of role distribution spec:
Being a SpyCraft game, I'm sure I have no way of telling how the factions are dist. atm. But I'm thinking that in a game of 21 players, getting a majority will be quite hard...21/6 factions gives us ~3 players per faction and your 'mystery guest', whom I'm assuming is a wild card...unless he's on scum team, which I doubt...

So to get majority there needs to be a LOT of killing going on. Praise the lord (by which I mean you guys, ofc) that I have a rechargeable kill power.

This is gonna be GREAT. I'll just drop any further tidbits of my thoughts for you guys in this convo in the future? Save on PM overload, lol.

Hehehehe, I'm getting bombed already, with questions on rulings, too.
If you have a question on how stuff works, please cite from your role PM or use that existing convo, it allows me to cite and keep all the texts on abilities close to the Role PM .

[Hugin & Munin]

Omtose-Bubba upon seeing his role:

Omtose, on 11 May 2010 - 11:12 PM, said:

Hmmmmmmm......They will never know what hit them.

[Hugin & Munin]

PBra

Mockra, on 12 May 2010 - 12:04 AM, said:

Yes yes, of course it would... sneaky Tapper.

Man, I am going to feel real bad for whoever gets killed off early in this one. Last time we were lucky enough that abilities intersected to avoid more than a lynch in the first two days. Dying early in a game this epic is sucky!

Remember all of that work we did on the Impersonator's role and it never got used! I would hate for your beautiful roles to get snuffed out so early

[Hugin & Munin]

Defiance reads his role:

Ruse, on 12 May 2010 - 12:19 AM, said:

Bitchin'