[Gothos]

Quite honestly, I liked Crokus' passages in TTH. It was a homecoming he looked forward to in a naive, juvenile hope to get things back to normal. But it turns out the city he entered isn't the city he left, and he himself is a different person now. He left as a young lad hopping the rooftops. He came back and nearly killed a legendary assassin, banged the chick who rejected him before he left, AND linked killing her husband with avenging a friend.
We've got a lot of disappointment and illusions dispersing here. I think it was only in TTH that he started to mature as a character. He feels very, very human in his actions, the good and the bad.

[Ulrik]

Well, Im finishing reread of TtH and I must say that Cutter is really interesting and important character. I like his transformation from naive teenager (Crokus), through naive "like-to-be" grown (I didnt protect you against six Imass, Im sooo pathetic) up into rather cynical adult who begins to solve his love problems (and hey, it is even more mature than killing half of Guild:)). Succesfully and without splash of useless words.
And in TtH he looks to me anything - but certainly not self-pitying. He is in psychic shit because thinks too much - didnt I hurt Scillara, didnt I hurt Challice, didnt I hurt Rallick (yeah, you did, but in other meaning). He finally threw his too strong care for everyone a simply began to act.
His trip to Darujhistan was simply last step in becoming mature. See that city didnt change much, but he did. See that his friends can live without him and vice versa, that he doesnt need to be at some romantical love all the time and live in world of legends, myths, beautiful poems, all wrapped in sweet lies.

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 29 April 2010 - 01:17 PM

[Ulrik]

Kityhawk, on 29 April 2010 - 02:05 PM, said:

Ulrik, on 29 April 2010 - 01:17 PM, said:

Well, Im finishing reread of TtH and I must say that Cutter is really interesting and important character. I like his transformation from naive teenager (Crokus), through naive "like-to-be" grown (I didnt protect you against six Imass, Im sooo pathetic) up into rather cynical adult who begins to solve his love problems (and hey, it is even more mature than killing half of Guild:)). Succesfully and without splash of useless words.
And in TtH he looks to me anything - but certainly not self-pitying. He is in psychic shit because thinks too much - didnt I hurt Scillara, didnt I hurt Challice, didnt I hurt Rallick (yeah, you did, but in other meaning). He finally threw his too strong care for everyone a simply began to act.
His trip to Darujhistan was simply last step in becoming mature. See that city didnt change much, but he did. See that his friends can live without him and vice versa, that he doesnt need to be at some romantical love all the time and live in world of legends, myths, beautiful poems, all wrapped in sweet lies.

I agree he didn't hurt Rallick and Challice (at least not their feelings)
But I'm pretty sure he hurt Scillara a bit, when he just kinda left her when they got off the ship and went off into the city to do his own thing.

By the way did anyone else believe without a doubt that Challice would be dead by the end of the book? Because I could see that coming right from her first chapter.

Im not saying that he didnt emotionally hurt someone. But at least he stopped to make it "most important thing in the Wu". They will survive it. They´ll understand. That for me is sign of his maturity. But Im not saying that being cruel to friends is mature:) Just that Cutter began to see things in their real value. That he couldn stop unbound Imass. That he really became master dagger-wielder. That he is not debted to Challice...even Scillara. That he must move.

Yeah, I really liked his part in TtH:) And after weekend Ill summarize it and begin big thread about great Nimander

[Abyss]

In ThH he has three incredibly cool moments (vs Rallick, Vidikas and the Hounds). He does spend an unfortunate chunk of time in between wallowing in self-waah, but overall i like Crokus as a character. His evolution through the series has been logical and i thought well written by SE. Even the name change makes sense and it's not like we haven't seen other characters change their names to suit whatever (Sorry/Apsalar, Fid/Strings, Keeper/Urko, Dassem/Dessembrae, etc)

And he was right about one thing: Scillara could do much better

There's something right about him reuniting with Apsalar and the two of them riding of into the sunset and killing hundreds of people together.

[KeithF]

Toll the Hounds was the first book where I really liked Crokus, though only around the time he dropped his stupid nickname. In GotM he seemed too much like a conventional fantasy hero compared to more interesting characters like Rake, Baruk and the Bridgeburners, in DG his plotline was a distraction from the hardcoreness of the Chain of Dogs (though I enjoyed it a bit more on re-reading), and when he started calling himself 'Cutter' I just eyerolled.

[worry]

KeithF, on 29 April 2010 - 08:56 PM, said:

Toll the Hounds was the first book where I really liked Crokus, though only around the time he dropped his stupid nickname. In GotM he seemed too much like a conventional fantasy hero compared to more interesting characters like Rake, Baruk and the Bridgeburners, in DG his plotline was a distraction from the hardcoreness of the Chain of Dogs (though I enjoyed it a bit more on re-reading), and when he started calling himself 'Cutter' I just eyerolled.

I think that's deliberate. Except in his case, the psychic scars are sticking and affecting him rather than just pat window-dressing. His love interest isn't a plucky young princess-in-hiding and they actually might not make it in the end, he's kind of failing (and flailing) left and right rather than stumbling through victories, he's confronting horrors and being truly horrified by them...it sticks with him into the next scene, and the next chapter, and the next book. It's not totally inverted 100%, but it's a neat pretty severe twist on the reluctant young hero finding himself arc.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 29 April 2010 - 11:10 PM

[haroos]

well, it's pretty obvious that he is facing his own demons, questioning his decistions in life.
and he does feel regret about his attitude to scillara, to the point where he knows that it won't work with her, and it would be worse
if he came to try and explain that.
i don't think he acts out with a lack of compassion, quite the opposite i think.
and remember he went with apsalar to be with her, then she dumped him and he went to scillara and then he left, not knowing what to do, regreting his choices.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Kityhawk said:

Quote

The only way it might have had a purpose is if Crokus didn't find out that Gorlas killed Murillo and went and killed him becuase Challice eventually persuaded him. I think I'd have much preferred that.

And that would be completely nonsensical. Crokus would of course find out. imo, challice killed herself for entirely narcissistic reasons.

[D'rek]

worrywort, on 29 April 2010 - 11:09 PM, said:

KeithF, on 29 April 2010 - 08:56 PM, said:

Toll the Hounds was the first book where I really liked Crokus, though only around the time he dropped his stupid nickname. In GotM he seemed too much like a conventional fantasy hero compared to more interesting characters like Rake, Baruk and the Bridgeburners, in DG his plotline was a distraction from the hardcoreness of the Chain of Dogs (though I enjoyed it a bit more on re-reading), and when he started calling himself 'Cutter' I just eyerolled.

I think that's deliberate. Except in his case, the psychic scars are sticking and affecting him rather than just pat window-dressing. His love interest isn't a plucky young princess-in-hiding and they actually might not make it in the end, he's kind of failing (and flailing) left and right rather than stumbling through victories, he's confronting horrors and being truly horrified by them...it sticks with him into the next scene, and the next chapter, and the next book. It's not totally inverted 100%, but it's a neat pretty severe twist on the reluctant young hero finding himself arc.

Couldn't agree more. The cliche innocent little boy character stays young and innocent the whole story through, never being affected by the severity of what he's actually doing. When he drops Scillara to run into the city he's still not there yet, but reacting to Rallick, his unsatisfactory affair with Challice and Murillio dying I think is the world forcing Crokus to realize what he's truly become and come to grips with it, hence why he turns about and goes off with Spite because he's stopped denying to himself what he is and feels.