[Illuyankas]

Furion, on 23 April 2010 - 05:27 PM, said:

As for haroos, sorry, you're wrong about Tavore and Felisin. Just plain wrong. Tavore sent Baudin with Felisin to protect her from becoming exactly what she CHOSE to become - a sexual slave to an abusive druggie. Felisin drove Baudin off, the one person willing, and more importantly, very ABLE, to help her for no recompense. The man is a walking monster, and could have kept her safe from everyone else with no trouble. Felisin decided to be stupid.

Guards. Your point is invalid. And feel free to point out what other choices a naive and utterly abandoned teenage girl could make.

[Ulrik]

Wow, we could make opera from this discussion...or Broadway musical.

"She´s wrong wrong wrong!" (chorus)
"Oh no, no, no!" (chorus)
"I blame her! Shes guilty!" (pro-Feslisin member)
"She made it all clearly!" (pro-Tavore member)
"She´s wrong wrong wrong!" (chorus)
...

OK, sorry, I admit, I drank too much...but, who cares, just make that musical.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Ulrik, on 23 April 2010 - 07:26 PM, said:

Wow, we could make opera from this discussion...or Broadway musical.

"She´s wrong wrong wrong!" (chorus)
"Oh no, no, no!" (chorus)
"I blame her! Shes guilty!" (pro-Feslisin member)
"She made it all clearly!" (pro-Tavore member)
"She´s wrong wrong wrong!" (chorus)
...

OK, sorry, I admit, I drank too much...but, who cares, just make that musical.

I hope someone makes this musical just so that I can not buy a ticket to it. Lol...point well taken on the direction of the thread tho.

[Furion]

Illuyankas, on 23 April 2010 - 06:37 PM, said:

Furion, on 23 April 2010 - 05:27 PM, said:

As for haroos, sorry, you're wrong about Tavore and Felisin. Just plain wrong. Tavore sent Baudin with Felisin to protect her from becoming exactly what she CHOSE to become - a sexual slave to an abusive druggie. Felisin drove Baudin off, the one person willing, and more importantly, very ABLE, to help her for no recompense. The man is a walking monster, and could have kept her safe from everyone else with no trouble. Felisin decided to be stupid.

Guards. Your point is invalid. And feel free to point out what other choices a naive and utterly abandoned teenage girl could make.

You don't think Baudin couldn't have scared off whatshisname in DG if Felisin asked? I do.

[Defiance]

Furion, on 23 April 2010 - 11:03 PM, said:

Illuyankas, on 23 April 2010 - 06:37 PM, said:

Furion, on 23 April 2010 - 05:27 PM, said:

As for haroos, sorry, you're wrong about Tavore and Felisin. Just plain wrong. Tavore sent Baudin with Felisin to protect her from becoming exactly what she CHOSE to become - a sexual slave to an abusive druggie. Felisin drove Baudin off, the one person willing, and more importantly, very ABLE, to help her for no recompense. The man is a walking monster, and could have kept her safe from everyone else with no trouble. Felisin decided to be stupid.

Guards. Your point is invalid. And feel free to point out what other choices a naive and utterly abandoned teenage girl could make.

You don't think Baudin couldn't have scared off whatshisname in DG if Felisin asked? I do.

You do realize that Beneth not only had a lot of thugs under his control, but was buddies with Sawark as well? If Baudin had tried to scare Beneth off, he would have not only had a bunch of thugs on his ass but some of the actual mine guards as well?

[Illuyankas]

And why would she ask him? What was he to her but a savage murdering thug?

[Aptorian]

Defiance, on 23 April 2010 - 11:09 PM, said:

You do realize that Beneth not only had a lot of thugs under his control, but was buddies with Sawark as well? If Baudin had tried to scare Beneth off, he would have not only had a bunch of thugs on his ass but some of the actual mine guards as well?

This is of course the Malazan Book of the fallen. I would expect that Baudin could carve a couple of flint Otataral knives out of the rock with his teeth and used it to kill everyone in the camp.

That's what Kalam would have done.

[Telorast Mad]

First Sword Ultor, on 22 April 2010 - 11:22 PM, said:

Its constantly seen that one act of, so called, evil was actually just another characters means of achieving their goal of 'good'. Their is no true sense of good and evil, it comes strictly down to power. Who has it, who's using it and who commands it are the only questions that truly go through these characters minds.

- Ultor

Ultor, What you said reminds me of something a character (mercenary) said in Warbreaker, a book by Brandon Sanderson:


Denth smiled.
"You don't understand a man until you understand what makes him do what he does. Every man is a hero in his own story, Princess. Murderers don't believe that they're to blame for what they do. Thieves, they think they deserve the money they take. Dictators, they believe they have the right - for the safety of their people and the good of their nation - to so whatever they wish. The truth is, most people who do what you'd call 'wrong' do it for what they call 'right' reasons. Only mercenaries make any sense. We do what we're paid to do. That's it. Perhaps that's why people look down on us so. We're the only ones who don't pretend to have higher motives."
He paused, then met her eyes.
"In a way, we're the most honest men you'll ever meet." Another figure approached the table.
"That's right." Tonk Fah said, "but, you forgot to mention that in addition to being honest, we're also clever. And handsome."
"Those both go without saying." Denth said.


In my professional unemployed reader's opinion, Steven Erikson creates some of the least black & white, and therefore the most human & realistic, characters in fiction. Deep down even the most noble are selfish and the Hitlers and Stalins have families and pets. Quick Ben for example: he's done some nasty shit to further his mage interests, but is loyal to his empire (at least the army & adjunct that got exiled). It comes down to a matter of perspective for each individual.

[haroos]

telorast : "In my professional unemployed reader's opinion, Steven Erikson creates some of the least black & white"


well, you still have to remember that so far the "good guys" have been consistently the good guys and the opposite.
i mean, do you remember a character that is considered good which was later revealed to be "evil" ?
despite the fact that in the malazan series the good guys do some terrible things and the opposite, they still remain the good guys.

it's not realy a grey series.

This post has been edited by haroos: 25 April 2010 - 06:26 PM

[anothevilbadguy]

haroos, on 24 April 2010 - 01:15 PM, said:

well, you still have to remember that so far the "good guys" have been consistently the good guys and the opposite.
i mean, do you remember a character that is considered good which was later revealed to be "evil" ?
despite the fact that in the malazan series the good guys do some terrible things and the opposite, they still remain the good guys.

it's not realy a grey series.

Well, in GOTM the perspective constantly changed on who are the so called good guys. It is a grey series in that there aren't really good guys. Having people constantly change sides isn't a sign of a grey series, just an inconsistent character. If you mean in uncertain/misrepresented motives of a character resulting in a shifting perspective loads of characters fall under that. Shadowthrone and Cotillion originally are portrayed as pretty evil, although now it seems their motives are 'good'. Both Laseen and Tay have changed from bad to sort of good characters as their motives have become clearer, and the reader has been given a more balanced portrayal of their actions. Most Gods and Ascendants originally were portrayed as big-bads and have since become much greyer, or outright good (Rake). It could even be argued the Crippled God has become good or at least somewhat blameless for his actions, as his situation has become more apparent. If you don't think Malazan is grey, what is?

In modern epic fantasy I think it is probably the greyest series out there.

[Aptorian]

haroos, on 24 April 2010 - 01:15 PM, said:

well, you still have to remember that so far the "good guys" have been consistently the good guys and the opposite.
i mean, do you remember a character that is considered good which was later revealed to be "evil" ?
despite the fact that in the malazan series the good guys do some terrible things and the opposite, they still remain the good guys.

it's not realy a grey series.

"... Revealed to be evil" is a bad turn of phrase. No, we haven't seen people we have POVs of and know well do a flip flop all of a sudden and suddenly become good or bad. How ever we have seen good guys doing bad things and bad guys doing good things.

I think one of the best examples of good guys doing bad things is where the Bonehunters are killing civilians and unarmed in the Eternal Domicile in RG. Those were war crimes, done cold blooded. Even Hedge was aghast at Fiddler allowing it.

Karsa is a great example of a bad guy turned good, or if not good, then at least he's become an anti-hero. Rapping and killing indiscriminately in the beginning and now he's become something of a wise and just warrior (bent on destroying the world for its own good no less).

The CG I assume we might learn in the final book is nothing but a victim of others machinations.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

One could say that even Rake is somewhat more dark and "evil" in GotM than he is in other books. But I think that's SE deciding to change the character , a bit like Cotillion.
For example I don't think the, say, TtH Rake would have killed the wizards of Pale. He would have understood they acted out of desperate fear.(Although it is stated in the prologue that Rake didn't care for that)

[Telorast Mad]

haroos, on 24 April 2010 - 01:15 PM, said:

well, you still have to remember that so far the "good guys" have been consistently the good guys and the opposite.
i mean, do you remember a character that is considered good which was later revealed to be "evil" ?
despite the fact that in the malazan series the good guys do some terrible things and the opposite, they still remain the good guys.
it's not realy a grey series.

Nope, nobody has been "revealed to be evil". However I do think that you get to see the different sides of each character as you follow the series and learn about their pasts.
Hmmm you say people have been "consistently good" or "consistently evil/bad"... I meant to say that each character is BOTH good & bad.

LOL I do have a question for you regarding your second-to-last sentence: so if the "good guys do some terrible things and the opposite, they still remain the good guys" what the heck constitutes a bad guy??? You're assuming the Malazan army are the good guys why, because they're the main characters? Because the series began with them?

I'm not saying they're evil. I'm trying to say there is no such thing as pure evil in a SE series. Just very, very human. As opposed to say, Mercedes Lackey characters, who are just fairy tales - her expressing the desire for things to always work out for good, to have a reason, to want to believe in the good in everybody, and that those that are evil are simply instruments of Evil itself and nothing more. Pure evil is an illusion and I think SE captures the reality of being human very, very well.

No hard feelings, just saying

[Aptorian]

Pure evil is using comic sans in your forum posts.

[Telorast Mad]

Aptorian, on 25 April 2010 - 06:16 AM, said:

Pure evil is using comic sans in your forum posts.

Well then.... MWAHAHAHAHA!!


Edit: Meh.. It does make me look like an idiot though, you're right lol

This post has been edited by Telorast Mad: 25 April 2010 - 07:47 AM

[Aptorian]

Another sign of pure evil is using "lol" in a sentence.

[Ulrik]

But he (she?) isnt part of MBoF...and if is, where is damned fourth wall??




OK, to topic. 

Haroos: Sorry mate, but saying "they are good and this isnt grey" wont turn it in truth. Main characters are capable of cruel actions, even Fiddler slips sometimes (and he is really "one of best"). And vice versa, "evil" guys usually has tendency to show act of mercy... 

Best thing on SE´s work is, that he shows society like it is. Everyone is sometimes really damned bitch aand everyone can sometimes pity something, someone...

And sentence despite the fact that in the malazan series the good guys do some terrible things and the opposite, they still remain the good guys is for me horrible and BS... But now I take it more as comparison to real world than MBoF topic... (because I met many people in real life saying exactly same thing).

[Telorast Mad]

Aptorian, on 25 April 2010 - 09:40 AM, said:

Another sign of pure evil is using "lol" in a sentence.

*narrows eyes* One might think you were trying to imply I were evil... Well please pardon my language then, gentlemen. I am a she by the way, just having a stubborn avatar, won't change

[worry]

Personally I do kinda believe in good and evil regardless of what one can rationalize (means vs. ends, and so on), even in the Malazan universe, but I think perhaps a more pertinent question is whether people can change. And if they can...who will, who won't, who wants to, who can or can't, etc.? In a world where in some cases life is virtually endless, and power runs the gamut, how have Anomander Rake and Draconus evolved, vs. say Silchas Ruin or the three draconic sole(taken) sisters? Karsa and Kallor are interesting to compare and contrast in terms of age and ability, and lessons learned. And of course Icarium is more or less unable to learn from his past, and is one of the series' greatest tragic figures. That brings up the Nameless ones, as it's not just about individuals. Which societies are evolving, and which are stagnating or self-destructing? Who's learned their lesson from what befell the First Empire(s)?

[hmqb]

BAhh no one is evil in MBoTF, every one just dances. The whole story I swear every one just gets drunk and dances.
Atleast that what I thought I read...

This post has been edited by High Mage Quick Ben: 03 June 2010 - 11:34 PM