[Gothos]

@OP - you should really read RotCG, regarding Laseen and Tayschrenn. Tays is one of the most benevolent characters in the malazan world, all things considered. Laseen may be ambitious, but she's more or less fair and her service is to the Empire, not herself.

[Iskaral Pust]

Can't do the quote stuff, I am doing this on my fone at work. So in reply to Apt, I am not calling him evil because he was a mage of the Apocalypse. It is the circumsion and sexual slavery (of woman and girl children). In Africa circumcision is cultural but it is quite clearly shown in the books that it is not a cultural relic in this case. I believe a Scillara pov and/or shaik comment prove this. Will check books for quotes tonight.

[Harvester]

I think it's somewhat lazy or naive to define someone as evil only because he is anathema to mankind or its conventionalized moral codex. Do away with this word and accept that he's just human.

Bidithal thought he was doing the right thing, so what? I didn't like his actions, you didn't like them, but that's because we think our vision/s of the world is/are "the norm" and everything else is "abnormal".

[Gothos]

Find me a great villain that openly admitted he's doing anything wrong.
Only with the strength of conviction can total atrocities be committed.

[Eispeis]

My short assesment:

Kallor is evil. Regardless of his slight redemption in TTH he's still a nasty f*cker willing to take millions of lives out of spite.

The two necromancers aren't necessarily evil. The bald one (can never remember which is which) is insane, the other one is... let's say pragmatic.

The most evil deed I've seen so far is done by Laseen, Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom. The betrayal of Coltaine and the Wickans upset me so much that I wanted to set my copy of tBH on fire. You can always argue what is/isn't evil based on different POVs/motivations/what was right at the time etc, but Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom are the two most obvious villains in my opinion.

Edit: Some of the thugs in the camp surrounding Itkovian's barrow are stupidly and purely evil as well.

This post has been edited by Eispeis: 23 April 2010 - 11:56 AM

[Harvester]

I give up.

[haroos]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 23 April 2010 - 01:37 AM, said:

So, would it have been less evil of Tavore to kill her sister quickly instead of sending her to the Otataral mines with a bodyguard that Felisin alienated and then ignored? You are making it sound like she sold her into slavery to make a quick buck.

wow, touchy subject, tavore ?
read this again :

tavore sent a 14 year old girl to be a slave and a sexual object knowingly, and in full acceptence of it.
she did it as a political move to make it SEEM as if she is impartial.
yes, death would have been easier, as death was the result anyway, and i can say a pretty obvious ending.
let's assume felisin would have been rescued, she then would have lived a life as a formerly bruised soul, depending on the mercy of tavore and the
ignorance of tavore's rivals ...
a shitty life in all aspects.
tavore did something horrifically evil, and you know what, so far i have not read one page that redeemed her image in my mind.
yes, she cares for her soldiers in an arrogant and detached sort of way, yes she was willing to sacrifice herself, when she had little choice.
she rightly is afraid of her older brother, who i think owes it to justice to curse her actions.

(and remember, this is an opinion, don't take it so personally.)

[Iskaral Pust]

Quote

Harvester
Posted Today, 12:24 PM

I think it's somewhat lazy or naive to define someone as evil only because he is anathema to mankind or its conventionalized moral codex. Do away with this word and accept that he's just human.

Bidithal thought he was doing the right thing, so what? I didn't like his actions, you didn't like them, but that's because we think our vision/s of the world is/are "the norm" and everything else is "abnormal".

I don't disagree with you Harvester but, but....

Although I agree that a definition of evil will differ from person to person and from context to context, the OP was asking for our thoughts on this. And I think it is a very good question as it cuts through to what I believe are some of the central themes of the series. The interplay of morality, justice, redemption and compassion.

This interplay is questioned constantly throughout the series from GotM to DoD and especially in TtH. I can find (and we are given through POV's) justification's for many of the atrocities committed in the series (and I don't use that word lightly) and I believe that SE is DARING us to judge his characters.

I mentioned Bidithal as my most "evil" character because he is one of the few characters in the series whose justifications I have no empathy with. Thats not to say I morally agree with lots of the decisions taken by some characters in the series, but I can see where they come from, with Bidithal I can't - sorry. So I judge, as did Karsa and Heboric, that the man is evil.

I find these themes to be some of the most interesting aspects of SE and ICE work and I will try and find somewhere more appropriate to post further comments. Any pointers from the more experienced members of the community would be nice.

Thanks and sorry for rambling ....

[Defiance]

What you percieve more or less make your reality, so in the end the existance of good and evil is a matter of opinion. Trying to shove your beliefs down everyone else's throat is not going to work any more than if this thread was about religion with us all trying to convince each other that ours is the right one.

[Illuyankas]

Bidithal got sexual pleasure from circumcising women. Kallor, though one of my favourite characters, murdered all his children by taking them from their mothers the instant they were born and dashing their heads against a wall. Both of them are pretty fucking evil.

[Iskaral Pust]

Defiance, on 23 April 2010 - 02:18 PM, said:

What you percieve more or less make your reality, so in the end the existance of good and evil is a matter of opinion. Trying to shove your beliefs down everyone else's throat is not going to work any more than if this thread was about religion with us all trying to convince each other that ours is the right one.

Not trying to shove anything ... anywhere mate

Just sharing my thoughts ... as I said I will try to find somewhere more appropriate to post further musings on SE's treatment of the themes.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

haroos, on 23 April 2010 - 12:08 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 23 April 2010 - 01:37 AM, said:

So, would it have been less evil of Tavore to kill her sister quickly instead of sending her to the Otataral mines with a bodyguard that Felisin alienated and then ignored? You are making it sound like she sold her into slavery to make a quick buck.

wow, touchy subject, tavore ?
read this again :

tavore sent a 14 year old girl to be a slave and a sexual object knowingly, and in full acceptence of it.
she did it as a political move to make it SEEM as if she is impartial.
yes, death would have been easier, as death was the result anyway, and i can say a pretty obvious ending.
let's assume felisin would have been rescued, she then would have lived a life as a formerly bruised soul, depending on the mercy of tavore and the
ignorance of tavore's rivals ...
a shitty life in all aspects.
tavore did something horrifically evil, and you know what, so far i have not read one page that redeemed her image in my mind.
yes, she cares for her soldiers in an arrogant and detached sort of way, yes she was willing to sacrifice herself, when she had little choice.
she rightly is afraid of her older brother, who i think owes it to justice to curse her actions.

(and remember, this is an opinion, don't take it so personally.)

Trust me, not taking it personally and I'm definitely not a huge closet Tavore fan or anything. I do think you are overstating it. If things had gone according to her plan Felisin would have basically made the trip to O island and then gotten broken out immediately. She did not however, sell her into prostitution the way you're making it out to sound. Felisin got addicted to drugs and became a prostitute all on her own. I guess Tavore put her in the position where that kind of outcome was possible, but she also put a very capable bodyguard there to stop Felisin from being forced into anything like that. Perhaps I'm just less than sympathetic to Felisin because I view her as a total bitch tho...

[Defiance]

Iskaral Pust, on 23 April 2010 - 03:05 PM, said:

Defiance, on 23 April 2010 - 02:18 PM, said:

What you percieve more or less make your reality, so in the end the existance of good and evil is a matter of opinion. Trying to shove your beliefs down everyone else's throat is not going to work any more than if this thread was about religion with us all trying to convince each other that ours is the right one.

Not trying to shove anything ... anywhere mate

Just sharing my thoughts ... as I said I will try to find somewhere more appropriate to post further musings on SE's treatment of the themes.

Wasn't replying to you in particular, rather the people who were trying to argue that good and evil don't exist as if they were expecting everyone to agree with them.

[Illuyankas]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 23 April 2010 - 03:07 PM, said:

Trust me, not taking it personally and I'm definitely not a huge closet Tavore fan or anything. I do think you are overstating it. If things had gone according to her plan Felisin would have basically made the trip to O island and then gotten broken out immediately. She did not however, sell her into prostitution the way you're making it out to sound. Felisin got addicted to drugs and became a prostitute all on her own. I guess Tavore put her in the position where that kind of outcome was possible, but she also put a very capable bodyguard there to stop Felisin from being forced into anything like that. Perhaps I'm just less than sympathetic to Felisin because I view her as a total bitch tho...

"Hey sis, I'm going to throw you into slavery and let you get raped repeatedly or else do a lot of reprehensible things to survive what you think is a death sentence to only get raped a moderate amount, but I'm going to give you a bodyguard to scare off the other prisoners and help you only get raped by guards and camp officials who he can't buy or scare off, but I'm not going to tell you this so you think I've abandoned you totally and make you give up on life. I'm going to do all this for politically expedient reasons, too."
"W-What?"
"GET IN THE RAPESHIP, BITCH!"

[Ulrik]

"Or I can cut your throat"
"Wha..gurlghkhh....."

Felisin is treacherous ungrateful bitch and what she got from 90% she drove on herself. But yeah, I pity her twice in books.

Yeah, its my really bad, 100% subjective opinion and I do not even like Tavore much:)

[Harvester]

Defiance, on 23 April 2010 - 03:11 PM, said:

Iskaral Pust, on 23 April 2010 - 03:05 PM, said:

Defiance, on 23 April 2010 - 02:18 PM, said:

What you percieve more or less make your reality, so in the end the existance of good and evil is a matter of opinion. Trying to shove your beliefs down everyone else's throat is not going to work any more than if this thread was about religion with us all trying to convince each other that ours is the right one.

Not trying to shove anything ... anywhere mate

Just sharing my thoughts ... as I said I will try to find somewhere more appropriate to post further musings on SE's treatment of the themes.

Wasn't replying to you in particular, rather the people who were trying to argue that good and evil don't exist as if they were expecting everyone to agree with them.

Sorry, it's a Derridaen way of looking at language at work. But let's face it, the closer you look at a word or an abstract concept, the more diffuse it becomes - until, in the end, it falls apart.

//edit:
I don't want to smartass around, no, I just want to find ways to apply this not very useful knowledge I have to plow through every day.

This post has been edited by Harvester: 23 April 2010 - 04:23 PM

[Defiance]

I always saw it as stupidity on Tavore's part, rather than outright evil. I don't think she realized the danger she was putting Felisin in. Is that an excuse? No, but I really doubt she was outright thinking "oh hey my little sister is going to get raped and possibly become a drug addict." It's like third world countries and all, you hear about how bad they are, but until you actually set foot in one of them and see how bad the poverty is, it doesn't seem as "real", if that makes sense. Also, I imagine she was ignorant enough to think that Baudin could protect Felisin from anything, but what Tavore didn't realize was that the person who was going to be the most danger to Felisin was herself. It was a terrible miscalculation on Tavore's part, but I can't consider her pure evil because of it.

Also, I imagine she didn't tell Felisin for her own safety. Another miscalculation, perhaps, but I can imagine Tavore did it because she didn't want Felisin to spoil anything - her safety or Tavore's position. I mean, imagine if Felisin had known Tavore was protecting her, in her arrogance she might have told all the thugs and everyone to back the fuck off because she was under the Adjunct's protection. Which, as you can no doubt imagine, wouldn't have quite the effect Felisin desired (and even if it did keep her safe from the thugs, I'm sure Laseen would find out sooner or later and Tavore's position would go bye-bye).

So, I don't see Tavore's actions as entirely selfish. Foolish, miscalculated, and very self-serving, yes, but she was doing her best to protect Felisin.

[haroos]

felisin is a victim.
yes, later she did bad things, but this behaviour is a of ptsd person.
can u understand her pov ? being thrown into a horrific slavery, by your own sister.
does it matter that tavore had other plans ?
would felisin have cared if she knew ?
while she was a slave she would have said : "my sister made sure i had a bodyguard, so i can get used to the beatings" ?
felisin was broken body and soul, her later deeds are a result of a survivor, not a player.
she was the receiver of damage, not the distributor.

[Furion]

Defiance, on 23 April 2010 - 02:18 PM, said:

What you percieve more or less make your reality, so in the end the existance of good and evil is a matter of opinion. Trying to shove your beliefs down everyone else's throat is not going to work any more than if this thread was about religion with us all trying to convince each other that ours is the right one.

I don't think many people here are trying to shove our own moralities down anyone's throats.

But just as most of the villains of this story believe they have justifications for their own actions, we can judge their justifications as strong or weak, appropriate, or not. For example, I can read Kallor's POVs and determine that the man is just about the worst creature in existence, and should never have control over any city, nation, or empire. If I was Rake, I would send Kallor to Dragnipur without hesitation. Why? Because he is a horrible person. And I have my justifications for this action, which is to protect humanity from him. Just as Kallor had his own reasons for murdering a million people. Can you say I'm wrong for this decision?


As for haroos, sorry, you're wrong about Tavore and Felisin. Just plain wrong. Tavore sent Baudin with Felisin to protect her from becoming exactly what she CHOSE to become - a sexual slave to an abusive druggie. Felisin drove Baudin off, the one person willing, and more importantly, very ABLE, to help her for no recompense. The man is a walking monster, and could have kept her safe from everyone else with no trouble. Felisin decided to be stupid. Tavore had nothing to do with that, she did her best to protect her sister from the culling. If Tavore had NOT been Adjunct, both she and Felisin would have died in the culling.

[haroos]

Furion, on 23 April 2010 - 05:27 PM, said:

Defiance, on 23 April 2010 - 02:18 PM, said:

What you percieve more or less make your reality, so in the end the existance of good and evil is a matter of opinion. Trying to shove your beliefs down everyone else's throat is not going to work any more than if this thread was about religion with us all trying to convince each other that ours is the right one.

I don't think many people here are trying to shove our own moralities down anyone's throats.

But just as most of the villains of this story believe they have justifications for their own actions, we can judge their justifications as strong or weak, appropriate, or not. For example, I can read Kallor's POVs and determine that the man is just about the worst creature in existence, and should never have control over any city, nation, or empire. If I was Rake, I would send Kallor to Dragnipur without hesitation. Why? Because he is a horrible person. And I have my justifications for this action, which is to protect humanity from him. Just as Kallor had his own reasons for murdering a million people. Can you say I'm wrong for this decision?


As for haroos, sorry, you're wrong about Tavore and Felisin. Just plain wrong. Tavore sent Baudin with Felisin to protect her from becoming exactly what she CHOSE to become - a sexual slave to an abusive druggie. Felisin drove Baudin off, the one person willing, and more importantly, very ABLE, to help her for no recompense. The man is a walking monster, and could have kept her safe from everyone else with no trouble. Felisin decided to be stupid. Tavore had nothing to do with that, she did her best to protect her sister from the culling. If Tavore had NOT been Adjunct, both she and Felisin would have died in the culling.

well, felisin is a 14 years old girl , a slave.
14 years old.
she is abused.
btw, if i remember correctly, the guy who is supposed to protect her has a pov where he is told by tavore that she will become a sexual slave as well.
( i don't remember the exact details, but it was in that sense).
tavore knew this would happen.
baudin knew this would happen.
his job is to get her out alive eventualy, after some time has passed, so she can be packaged into some kind of a life ...
so, the idea that felisin chose this, doesn't stick, imo.

This post has been edited by haroos: 23 April 2010 - 05:34 PM