[Dolmen 2.0]

Which is more evocative 1st person or 3rd person?

I have been writting a short story but find myself subconsciously
jumping from one form of prose to another.
So I thought I'd get an opinion thread going with a poll.

That way me and the rest of the author republic can get
a better sense of what people enjoy.

[Tsundoku]

Depends. Do you want readers to see the scene through the eyes of the 1st person narrator- feeling what they feel, seeing only what they see? Or from a distance, more dispassionately?

This post has been edited by Sombra: 17 April 2010 - 12:16 PM

[Dolmen 2.0]

I used to aim more at giving the reader a better impression of the world I've created.
now Its not just about the feeling the main character gets, its more about the overall
situation.

I feel third person narration allows the story to develop faster , making it easier to
fill the pages with action and activity. 1st person on the otherhand feels more like a
depth developing tool. In a short story I worry the personal focus in 1st person
storytelling weighs down the stories momentum. I can't seem to find a bridge between
the two methods...

[Tsundoku]

So alternate between the 2 each time you start a new section, or "the camera" shifts.

Literally 1st person inside the room/house (or where you want to convey something internal), then 3rd person when the character walks outside or the scene somehow changes where you want an observer's perspective.

Just an idea.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 17 April 2010 - 12:20 PM

[Silencer]

Personally I tend to dislike short stories...but that was born of the whinging and moaning so prevalent in Katherine Mansfield's stuff that I was force-fed at college. What I'm trying to say is, don't take my word for it:

First person can weigh a text down, true - but think about it. You're writing a short story. You don't *need* exceptionally deep characters, you just need to imply that depth. Now, if you can't do that via third person, then (aside from needing to practice doing so), you should probably try and streamline your first person stuff. Reduce the clutter that is normally associated with that perspective, and just focus on what moves the story along.

That being said, there's no reason you can't have a hybrid. It's theoretically bad literary form, but in the modern age that could go down well anyway - bucking the system, as it were.

In the long run, I suppose, it depends on how long you're willing to have your short stories. XD Ofc, the thread title is about evocativeness, which is completely different again. Each perspective has its own ability to be evocative, when used correctly, and tbh I tend to find third person, surprisingly, to be more effective more often than not. First person you get the character's feelings, sure...but you're being force-fed it, rather than leaving it up to the imagination...and isn't that the point of evocative text?

[Tsundoku]

You could always have the 3rd person "observer" actually turn out to be ... a 3rd person observer, part of the story. Just one that talks dryly and dispassionately enough to use the reader's own preconceptions against them. Sort of hearkens back to the days of the great oral tradition (oral history, you filthy perves ), where the narrator of the story is speaking as if he were really there, or relating the story of someone who was. Neo-Homeric, so to speak.

Then again, it could also just be a cute literary trick with no real merit.

EDIT:
@Silencer
Yeah, ever since we started getting "poetry" that has neither rhyme nor consistent tempo, I think it's safe to say we can throw the rulebook out the window. Along with our definition of "art" - but that's another DB rant entirely.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 17 April 2010 - 12:40 PM

[MTS]

I don't think as a general rule one person is more evocative than the other. Different situations benefit from one person more than the other. General description I think can work very well both ways, but I find first person to be a better fit when I'm writing dialogue. However, 3rd person is more useful I think in creating a more holistic impression in world-building. But that's just me.

And what about 2nd?

[Dolmen 2.0]

from the annals of wikipedia on 2nd person:

"Second-person view
Main article: Second-person narrative
Probably the rarest mode in literature (though quite common in song lyrics) is the second-person narrative mode, in which the narrator refers to one of the characters as "you", therefore making the audience member feel as if he or she is a character within the story. The second-person narrative mode is often paired with the first-person narrative mode in which the narrator makes emotional comparisons between the thoughts, actions, and feelings of "you" versus "I". Often the narrator is therefore also a character in his or her story, in which case it would technically still be employing the first-person narrative mode.

In letters and greeting cards, the second-person narrative mode is often used in a non-fictional atmosphere.

Perhaps the most prominent example of this mode in contemporary literature is Jay McInerney's Bright Lights, Big City. In this novel, the second-person point of view is intended to create an intense sense of intimacy between the narrator and the reader, causing the reader to feel implicit in and powerless against a plot that leads him, blindly, through his (the reader’s and the narrator’s) own destruction and redemption:

"You are not the kind of guy who would be at a place like this at this time of the morning. But here you are, and you cannot say the terrain is entirely unfamiliar, although the details are fuzzy. You are at a nightclub talking to a girl with a shaved head. The club is either Heartbreak or the Lizard Lounge. All might become clear if you could just slip into the bathroom and do a little more Bolivian Marching Powder. Then again, it might not. A small voice inside you insists that this epidemic lack of clarity is a result of too much of that already."
Other notable examples of the second-person narrative mode include Italo Calvino's If on a winter's night a traveler, and Tom Robbins' Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas. As well, Damage by A.M. Jenkins uses the second-person to show how distant the depressed main character has become from himself. And the narrator of Joseph Olshan's novel Nightswimmer intimately explains a story that his lover only partially understands. The second-person has also been used in many short stories."

Second-person narration can be a difficult style to manage. But when it is done well, this type of narration allows (or forces) the reader to imagine him or herself within the action of the novel. One possible (and frequently exploited) effect of the second-person is a strong accusatory tone, which can be achieved if the narrator condemns or expresses strong feelings about the actions of the focal character (“you”). This technique can also be used effectively to place the reader in unfamiliar, disturbing, or exciting situations. For example, in his novel Complicity, Iain Banks uses the second-person in the chapters dealing with the actions of a murderer.

One notable example of the use of second-person narration is the Choose Your Own Adventure series of children's books, in which the reader actually makes decisions and jumps around the book accordingly. Similarly, most interactive fiction is in the second person.

An even more unusual, but potentially stylish version of second person narration takes the form of a series of imperative statements with the implied subject "you", as in this example from Lorrie Moore's "How to Be a Writer":

"Decide that you like college life. In your dorm you meet many nice people. Some are smarter than you. And some, you notice, are dumber than you. You will continue, unfortunately, to view the world in exactly these terms for the rest of your life."
An example of second-person narrative in TV is the show Secret Girlfriend on Comedy Central. The show and story is shot and written as if the viewer is actually in the episode. Sonic the Story, a book that breaks the fourth wall, has this point of view.[citation needed]"
-wiki

I didn't even think it existed.

[Aimless]

I think that the voice of the narrator should have a personal tone, and, preferably, be a person. If not the main character, then a third-party observer... or even the writer himself

[Yellow]

Obviously it depends on the situation, but often times it's easier to drag the reader in when you write in first person.

The two winning entries for the writing comp so far have both been first person... coincidence?

I wrote a piece of flash fiction for a comp over on SFFWorld a while back that was supposed to be 2nd person. In the end I think it turned out as first person where the character was talking to another person (i.e. you did this, you said that). So probably wasn't what it should have been, but it worked out quite well and it was fun to do

[Cause]

I have found a neat trick is to use first person for an opening section whenever I introduce a new character. It allows you to quickly get out a characters thoughts, feelings motivations etc. Than once the characters intro is done its back to third person to get the story flowing.

[Fist Gamet]

I have a preference for third person narrative on larger projects as I feel, like others, you really need it if you want to aim for something epic with a whole lot of world-building. Not saying you can't do it first person but it probably wouldn't be the best choice (imagine the entire MBoTF series in first person, or WoT from inside Rand al Bore's mind...), and I am currently attempting a science fiction tale in first person as I hadn't tried it before.
What I have found, is that whilst I anticipated first person being restrictive, I have found it to be somewhat liberating and I am able to explore the thoughts and feelings and humour of my protagonist in ways I couldn't realy achieve in third. Given the right setting, and a likeable and intriguing character, the first person becomes this voyage of discovery and kinship for the reader. Which is the more evocative? At the risk of sounding evasive, it really does depend on what story I am writing and the situation. I can't do grand, sweeping battles from the first person, but I could narrow an entire battle down to the personal hell of one individual.
Third person, if written well, is far from impersonal. God's eye is, imo, to be avoided at all costs. Would I mix the styles? Perhaps in a sci-fi if I were narrating the entire story from the PoV of an alien consciousness exploring the human race by popping in and out of people's heads (without their knowing). Come to think of it, that's not a bad idea...

[Dolmen 2.0]

Bringing into perspective the fact all winning short stories were first person, it has to be said the reason they were so successful would be because the situations created straddled an emotive progression in conjunction with an actual event. It was all about getting to know the mental machinisations of the protagonists(or in this case the anti-protagonists). In terms of an action scene we all know and love take whiskeyjack versus kallor in MoI, a third person view, watching and not being a part of the fight makes the gravity of the outcome feel more like a slap to the face. you get the feeling you just watched it happen. you start thinking "WHAT? what the hell just happened?". I feel for an activity based sequence third person is key and I am starting to be convinced by arguments here that if I want to create a "WHAT just happened" moment filled with shock grief etc. then third person might be the way to go...

This post has been edited by Dolmen: 19 April 2010 - 09:49 AM

[Use Of Weapons]

Best ever essay on POVs, their uses, pros and cons (by Patricia Wrede on the rec.arts.sf.composition Usenet group):
http://groups.google...c39b03c0b?pli=1

[Grimjust Bearegular]

Third person, with inner monologue in first, Hamsun-style!

Read Mysteries if you want to know more:P