[Salt-Man Z]

Tatterdemalion, on 06 April 2010 - 04:48 AM, said:

I am OKAY at best with steam and gunpowder in fantasy, preferring the middle ages to the enlightenment.

You do know they used cannons and gunpowder in the Middle Ages, right?

[iRFNA]

The lack of technology of the other races makes sense when you consider the context. The KCCM/KCNR had convenient instant communication, which is incredibly useful in science and engineering (among other things). Look at what advances in communication have done for us. They were relatively isolated from other races (in part due to their inherent racial psychic connections and also from being scary lizard freaks), treating the jaghut and imass as inferiors based on any references to their confrontations. I doubt that means that they were sharing any technology, especially considering the KCNR were the ones with a primary focus on it (servent of the machines, etc). On top of that, the KCNR seem to have a general attitude for any other race that is probably summed up as unhesitating xenocide. Then we have the KCCM/KCNR civil wars that basically result in utter ruin of everything involved and nearby, making it difficult at best to recover any of their technology, which as others have noted is crazy magitech stuff so aspected to their particular racial hold alone anyway.

Keep in mind, the might of kallor's empire was heavily based on the remnants of KCCM/KCNR technology, so there's a definite precedent of other races using it. There isn't much info on it, but, at the very least, the dude had enough nuke-like weaponry to turn an entire continent into ash, so I'm guessing he had access to a fairly significant amount of tech.

As for the lack of technological development for the rest of the races? Why bother. Magic fills that niche easily, resulting in an insufficient motivation to pursue material sciences, much less codify said pursuit. Sure, there are outliers, but over-all there is simply no need to expend what would be extra effort and actual resources on what would be, until after much refining, an inferior functional replacement to magic.

[Tatterdemalion]

Illuyankas, on 06 April 2010 - 09:37 PM, said:

Having skykeeps opens up the opportunity for Caladan Brood to fly on Silannah's back, jump off and hit a skykeep with his hammer. This is, of course, FUCKING AWESOME.

The ending of DoD was a sign, that things are about to get absolutely crazy. I'm rather looking forward to it.

Hell yeah. A flying Sky-Keep hammer smash would be epic.

And to reply to y'all, with me it's more of a feeling of dislike than any particular reason as to why they ought not to exist. Seeing as every Sky-Keep we've seen has basically gotten ruined pretty fast, they aren't THAT effective... why not use that same technology to make, like, Tank-Keeps or flying mechanical dragons? Couldn't be much of a stretch. But again: with me it's more that I just don't find them too cool.

[chaosek]

The fall of the cripple god was also kind of a planet killer. If it happened to us the few remaining people scattered across the planet would have a very hard time getting back on the same level and as noted magic kind of negotiates that need.

[foolio]

I am still waiting for Silchas Ruin to unleash a major can of whoop ass on someone. In MT, we are told that camando types of edur and andii got onboard the sky keeps to distract them, but Silchas and Scabandari destroyed many skykeeps with Emurlan, Galain, and i cant remeber the draconean warren. Sounds pretty impressive.

[dawnkiller]

Kallor aside, I believe the only confirmed case we have of someone actually making an attempt to interact with/learn from the KCCM first hand was Silchas Ruin. Forget which book this was in (I want to say RG) but we know he tried to make treaties with them, spent time among them, and knows they kept records on their own skins. I find it likely he was trying to preserve their history, and might even have passed it on if not for Stabandari chucking him in an Azath. It's pretty doubtful the KCCM would have made an effort to contact humans on their own; we saw from the Imass flashbacks that they considered humanity just another type of big game. And hell, in the real world we've gained and lost technologies like steam power (Egypt), cataract/brain surgery (India and Rome) and rediscovered or replicated the results only hundreds or thousands of years later. So lost technologies are pretty realistic.

As for why there's no god of technology, like Hephaestus/Vulcan -- that is odd, but on the other hand there's the replacement of technology by magic, as noted, and on the other, do we know for certain there's not? We haven't seen one yet, but near the end of DoD Icarium is told to invoke "Blueiron". It's unclear what that is, but hey.

Another thing to consider: While machinery, engineering etc. do not appear to have representations among the Elder pantheon, this may be indicative of the tech level at the time. The first forces were primal, possibly because understanding of the world was limited to more immediate needs like eating, killing, fighting, etc. More physical, less intellectual. However: Icarium, old but not Elder, has been consistently referenced in the context of not only time, but the mechanisms he uses to create them. His habit of retracing his own steps without any knowledge that he's tread them before is basically an embodiment of SE's theme that history repeats because no one learns from it. In this sense, Icarium may actually be the Ascendant that embodies progress -- mechanical or otherwise. It's just that progress is cyclical, and things are lost as easily as they're gained.

'Course, magic being the primal force and K'rul being the embodiment of it, and Icarium basically being the new K'rul . . . could be we're headed towards an evolution of how the world operates.


(Personally I found the skykeep battle a nice change of pace since, dragons aside, we hadn't had much in the way of aerial warfare yet. Nice to see those damn things actually countered for once, too.)

[Illuyankas]

Silchas Ruin and Icarium, you mean.

[dawnkiller]

Illuyankas, on 27 April 2010 - 03:46 PM, said:

Silchas Ruin and Icarium, you mean.

...I forgot the guy who picked up all his building tips from them.

Impressive, brain. Impressive.

[Furion]

To me, the problem is not the sky-keeps themselves. The idea of elder races being incredibly technologically advanced, and then losing such power due to a cultural/social decline appeals to me. Sure, its an idea that's been done often enough before, but I still enjoy it.

The problem isn't the fact that the owners of such technology are reptilian, either. I'm cool with that. Reptiles owning advanced technology isn't something you see often in fantasy. It's refreshing.

The problem is the things are dinosaurs. In my military, gritty, brutal fantasy series. Dinosaurs. Somehow, I'm supposed to buy that dinosaurs, creatures with no fingers mind you, could produce extremely advanced technology. Sure they've got drones, but whatever. The drone in DoD felt like he was just added in as an afterthought, to be honest.

The other issue I had was being told that the Nahruk and KCCM war is still going on. Haven't several hundred thousand years passed by now? Sure, the Jaghut and Imass were fighting for 4 hundred thousand years or so, but thats different. Jaghut are more or less immortal, they live in solitude in remote places of the world, they are hard to kill and they are very powerful, while the Imass wouldn't care if half a million years passed. I can believe these two races can fight a war for hundreds of thousands of years.

The Nahruk and K'Chain? Not so much. When you can (apparently) phase your floating fortresses of doom through the warrens themselves, how in the world are the K'Chain going to hide from you? They live in giant dragon shaped cities. In colonies. It should not take hundreds of thousands of years to find and kill your enemies, when they are all concentrated into hives that are identifiable from a hundred miles away.

And I'm supposed to just swallow the idea that the Nahruk have been on a search and destroy mission spanning the globe and several different warrens for hundreds of thousands of years, and no one noticed their giant floating cities in all this time?

[worry]

They're not dinosaurs, but I assume they're from a world where something like what wiped out our dinosaurs never occurred, and they were allowed to evolve like our apes did. It's an interesting idea to me. I don't remember any of the KC lifespans mentioned either, so I dunno there. The matrons at least pass down their memories. It does seem to take a whole lot to get a Sky Keep through a warren though, they aren't just gliding through willy nilly, right? Also, most of the KCCM are already wiped out. The few on Genebackis were supposed to be the last, and most of the dragon keeps on Lether are empty of life already too. As far as I'm concerned, these KCCM have been hiding out, and only upon sensing the oncoming battle have they been desperately seeking out their human saviors. It's perhaps a stroke of genius, but also a desperate gamble. The Sky-Keeps are indeed seen by several other characters while they're in the IW. I forget why it takes killing a dragon, but perhaps the Nahruk have lost much knowledge of magic and manipulating the warrens with their tech obsessions. Those are just some ideas, I don't know how satisfying they will be.

[amphibian]

dawnkiller, on 27 April 2010 - 03:41 PM, said:

I find it likely [Ruin] was trying to preserve their history, and might even have passed it on if not for Stabandari chucking him in an Azath.

I highly doubt Ruin was interested in passing on history. Anomander seemed much more literate somehow and Ruin seemed more like the brawlin' brother of the three. It is also my theory that Ruin purposely let Scabandari throw him into the Azath to avoid all of the dragon hunting, power games and perhaps boredom. He's been observing history and the present all along and managed to get back out at the perfect time to change things or seize whatever he wants. He's playing a deep game and I like the character the better for it.

Furion, on 28 April 2010 - 03:50 AM, said:

And I'm supposed to just swallow the idea that the Nahruk have been on a search and destroy mission spanning the globe and several different warrens for hundreds of thousands of years, and no one noticed their giant floating cities in all this time?

We have no idea where the Nahruk came from. Or where they went in the first place. All we know is that they apparently lost a war to the KCCM, were sighted in the Imperial Warren a few years prior, may have been on the moon/in space for a while and nearly destroyed the Bonehunters with lightning weapons and a charge. That's it.

[dawnkiller]

Furion-

I'd say that if people in neighboring kingdoms had no idea Kolanese underwent mass genocide at the hands of the FA thanks to a desert, it is absolutely possible no one but the KCCM know about their war. Everyone thought the KCCM were extinct, too, but we see now there is a relict ppopulation -- just like Karsa's Toblakai tribe, the Andii of Drift Avalii, and the Imass in the Refugium. I think the reason it's not been mentioned isn't due to ass-pull, but rather the fact that we're following a primarily Malazan POV. They don't know what's going on, ergo neither do we.

(Also, weren't Sky Keeps sighted in the Imperial Warren in ROTC? I may be mixing my books, but I'm pretty sure there were a lot. We haven't known why until now, but we've been seeing signs.)

Another thing is that, I think in RG during the course of Ruin's D&D Adventuring Party, it's noted that the KCCM went from cliff-side cities to more underground dwellings, and no one's quite sure why. In retrospect I'd hazard a guess that the Nah'ruk as well as the Eleint (who razed at least one settlement) contributed to this change. In fact, the Nah'ruk's pursuit may be the reason why Rooted can become Uprooted: If they explicitly designed their dwellings to be mobile it means Sky-Keeps aren't war machines, but flying refugee camps equipped with weapons for self-defense.

As for not liking them because they're "dinosaurs," I initially had a similar reaction to the Tiste Andii because I am not a great fan of elves, and that's what I instantly equated long-lived warrior-mages to. However, the irritation subsided once more of their history was revealed, and once I had the backstory I was good. I might have agreed with you if this was a complaint around RG, where they really were just inexplicable kill-machines, but DoD gave us sufficient background to their culture and even some POV scenes, so it's improving IMO. It is a bit weird, since they are definitely "transplants" and read as such, but as that's what they're intended to be that makes sense.

amphibian, on 28 April 2010 - 05:27 AM, said:

I highly doubt Ruin was interested in passing on history. Anomander seemed much more literate somehow and Ruin seemed more like the brawlin' brother of the three. It is also my theory that Ruin purposely let Scabandari throw him into the Azath to avoid all of the dragon hunting, power games and perhaps boredom. He's been observing history and the present all along and managed to get back out at the perfect time to change things or seize whatever he wants. He's playing a deep game and I like the character the better for it.

I don't think Ruin is as vicious and backstabbing as his reputation (spread mainly due to his rival) lead many to believe. Cold, calculating bastard, yes (killed a little kid and all, Finnest or not), but in DoD we also learned he was the one who ordered Gallan's rescue-mission of the Shake. Not Anomander -- Ruin. So, while I agree on the deep game, I do think he has respect for other cultures (remember, back in MT he gave Kettle a "tour" of an old FA settlement, and spoke of them with quite a bit of knowledge). It didn't stop him from crushing the KCCM with the help of the Eleint, natch, but at least he bothered with talks first.

[worry]

Yah, Silchas Ruin is an academic of sorts, he's just not a people person like his brother.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 28 April 2010 - 07:20 PM

[Abyss]

The KChain generally seem to be an evolved lizard/dinosaur with a hive mind cuture. I wonder whether the Matrons weren't a late mutation/evolution, because lizards or dinosaurs are not naturally hive creatures the way ants or bees are (this based on my extensive time travel and interdomensional studies, naturally... ), and the Nahruk, who Kallor said were an older breed, were resistant to being subverted to the Matrons. Even Gunth Mach seemed resistant to being the sort of all controlling Matron that we had previously been told of. Acyl too now that i think about it. Given the Kchain tendency to evolve to deal with necessity (see Gunth adjusting her form to carry Kalyth), perhaps conditions somewhere led to a need for heavy power and directing minds, thus an evolution of the Matrons who were eventually no longer useful. I could be wrong but i think somewhere it's suggested that Matrons warred with ech other before the Tiste invasion. DoD tells us that apparently the KC did not war on Jaghut, but DID war unsuccessfully against the Thel Akai, tho that may be only Sag Churok's subjective recall.

Ruin is described at points as being more draconic than Rake. I'm not sure how that feeds into any appreciation for culture as opposed to being able to play the game in the long LONG term, but he does seem to think of things in the big picture.

[iRFNA]

Abyss said:

Ruin is described at points as being more draconic than Rake. I'm not sure how that feeds into any appreciation for culture as opposed to being able to play the game in the long LONG term, but he does seem to think of things in the big picture.

Unless you dedicate a few years toward relentlessly pissing him off, then he develops a bit of a red-hazed tunnel vision.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Abyss, on 28 April 2010 - 09:35 PM, said:

The KChain generally seem to be an evolved lizard/dinosaur with a hive mind cuture. I wonder whether the Matrons weren't a late mutation/evolution, because lizards or dinosaurs are not naturally hive creatures the way ants or bees are (this based on my extensive time travel and interdomensional studies, naturally... ), and the Nahruk, who Kallor said were an older breed, were resistant to being subverted to the Matrons. Even Gunth Mach seemed resistant to being the sort of all controlling Matron that we had previously been told of. Acyl too now that i think about it. Given the Kchain tendency to evolve to deal with necessity (see Gunth adjusting her form to carry Kalyth), perhaps conditions somewhere led to a need for heavy power and directing minds, thus an evolution of the Matrons who were eventually no longer useful. I could be wrong but i think somewhere it's suggested that Matrons warred with ech other before the Tiste invasion. DoD tells us that apparently the KC did not war on Jaghut, but DID war unsuccessfully against the Thel Akai, tho that may be only Sag Churok's subjective recall.

Ruin is described at points as being more draconic than Rake. I'm not sure how that feeds into any appreciation for culture as opposed to being able to play the game in the long LONG term, but he does seem to think of things in the big picture.

Since there was so much new shit that happened/was revealed in DoD I feel like this line has really gotten short shrift. It was just a throwaway thing, mentioning 250,000 K'chain going off to fight the Thel Akai and getting destroyed. Honestly, that sounds like it was maybe as important or at least as epic as the Jaghut war on death or the Tiste Invasions or the Jaghut/T'lan Imass wars.