[Pig Iron]

Fun but ack so brief read (sic transit ... or something like that). Killing someone you love who is also the mother of your child after provoking them into losing their soul (?), and this after having sold your own soul, wow. Will the Denarians come calling again you think? Maybe Mab is bad enough. Though when Molly's very capable and protective mother finds out Harry brought her along on a suicide mission against the entirety of the Red Court I guess he won't be in any shape to worry about that anyway.

[Use Of Weapons]

My thoughts:

First: Christ, that was freaking awesome.
Second: Erlking is badass. Expect to see more of him and his goblin lieutenants, especially the creepy insane one
Third: Woah, Winter knight finally? Does this wipe the final favour from Mab?
Fourth: Expect Winter Knight role to finally allow Harry to find out what the deal with Mab's injury is, and deal with the balance of the Faerie Courts.
Fifth: _Loved_ the final throwdown with the hoary old Mayan gods
Sixth: Odin totally rocks
Seventh: Expect Murph to take up the Sword permanently in the next novel or two. She can't deny that this is a more worthy fight having now experienced it.

Final thought: Harry didn't really...ring true...for me in large parts of this novel. I get the orphan thing, but it still seemed like his reaction and his risk-taking was disproportionate to the level of involvement he'd had with Maggie up to that point. It was the only off-true note in the whole thing for me.

Epilogue thought: Butcher, _you bastard_!

[Imperial Historian]

Just finished reading this, best book since Dead Beat, and goddamn the cliff hanger ending, hopefully the short story from Murphy's point of view in the new anthology clears somethings up.

Mouse was amazing in this book, I dunno if Mouse's awesomeness in being able to threaten Mabs most powerful emissary who can stand up to the big shots of the red court together on her own, is due to him being protected by the mortal thing, and so lea can't use her full powers on him, or just because he's awesome, but I loved every minute of that whole scene.

Will be interesting to see how Harry plays out as the winter knight... moral dilemmas abound!

The destruction of the beetle, his apartment and his office were sad... but I can't wait for the awesomeness of him moving to demonreach and finding out more about that place.

As to the speculation on who shot Harry.. we've still not confirmed who tried to run harry off the road in proven guilty (though my money is that it was peabody, in an attack of opportunity driving away from the meeting, though it could easily have been anyone else at that meeting) so it could be them, but there's also the possibility of a hitter payed by the ems before they disappeared into the clutches of the erlking, and its possible Marcone finally had enough of dresden giving him lip in front of his employees and had him killed. I don't think kincaid would have done it, he's shown enough affection for ivy, and he knows ivy would find out... plus if kincaid did it harry would be dead dead.

Also was interesting to see uriel encouragin harry towards mab, and saying he could come back from it...

Also merged the two spoiler topics for ease of use

[Abyss]

So summing up the losses/changes...

- Office (which he hasn't really been using much anyways);
- Apartment;
- Beetle (sniff);
- staff;
- 'innocence', now allied to Winter Court;
- cat (ok, it's unlikely Mister won't be back );
- Apprentice - Harrry says at one point that Molly is good enough to be on her own, and taking her into a battle where she's almost fantally wounded may end that relationship;
- allies - i can't help but wonder if the Winter Knight role plus Harry's action contrary to Merlin's demands may not get him booted from the Wardens, plus the new situation within the White Council;
- Susan (the loss has to hurt on all kinds of levels given how that played out);
- Maggie (found his daugter, then sent her away);
- Murphy (in the sense that they were finally about the get it on and LOOK WHAT HAPPENED BUTCHER YOU BASTARDDDDDD)

Gains/changes

- new digs @ Thomas' houseboat;
- Ebenezer's old staff;
- his mother's amulet basically lets him go anywhere;
- additional power over ice with the Winter Knight role;
- new ally in high places: Tilly;
- old ally in new places: Murphy, presulably if she ever takes up the damn sword! (pun intended);
- the war with the Red Court is over;
- the Grey Council is active;
- Thomas is sort of back as an ally


Serious set up for a radical change in status quo in the series. Did i miss anything?

- Abyss, has to go change again...

[Chance]

It really changes relationships with most characters some especially interesting could be.
- Fairy grandmother who I hope will make more regular apperances
- Mouse is no longer a smart dog...just what he is well who knows.
- McCoy is no longer a mentor but family.

- His coat...its been on a long journey with us
- Lost all toys he has created but what he carried...most of all little chicago.

- We can just speculate at the amount of fear/awe those who know that Dresden is not only the winter knight but gibbed the whole red court for personal reasons. People are already afraid of the man after all. All of which wouldn't surprise me if it where the reason he was shot in the ending.

/Chance...who will relax by begining a re-read of the series after tomorrows medival history exam...

This post has been edited by Chance: 06 April 2010 - 10:11 PM

[Abyss]

Chance, on 06 April 2010 - 10:03 PM, said:

...- His coat...its been on a long journey with us

Oh crap you're right!

Quote

- We can just speculate at the amount of fear/awe those who know that Dresden is not only the winter knight but gibbed the whole red court for personal reasons. People are already afraid of the man after all.

you make an excellent point. Harry's badassitude just shot through the stratosphere.

- Abyss, will conveniently overlook the whole shot thru the chest and possibly dying part.

[Obdigore]

I think Harry will keep his winter knight power-up for at least 2 books.

Next book will be investigating those who attacked arctis tor while dealing with summer testing his abilities, at the end of which he will reach an agreement with titanya for a cease-fire while harry/winter come down on those who framed summer for the attack on arctis tor.

Book after that will be them coming down, with nico's help, on those who did attack arctis tor, at the end of which harry dies (again) and loses knight status. In my opinion.

Remember that lake michigan is cold and perhaps that light/tunnel was a way opened by mab into her realm.

As for who the shooter was? I have no idea.

[Abyss]

My recall is sketchy, but hasn't there been a running subplot of someone out to get Harry for four or so books now. And it always seems like it's part of the plot-du-jour but turns out to be unrelated?

Am mid-re-read now and just realized something: In theory the bloodline ritual killed the entire Red Court race, but if the Eebs were being kept alive by the goblins for entertainment purposes post the duel in the Erlking's hall, i wonder whether they would have been affected.

- Abyss, notes it says something about how great this book is that i'm right into a re-read and totally re-enjoying it.

[Obdigore]

It is fitting that his coat is done.

Remember who gave it to him? Susan.

[Use Of Weapons]

Oh, good catch Obdi.

Crazy thought -- any chance Harry will get the Summer Knight gig too? The Winter mantle passes by death, but I don't think the Summer mantle needs to (even though Reuel did die). It'd be nice to think Fix wouldn't have to die. But how cool would it be to have both the Winter and Summer mantles? He could call himself the Soggy Knight

[vaiski]

Btw, regarding the cliffhanger, remember that the novella Aftermath (exclusive to the Side Jobs anthology, due in Novemberish) takes place 45 minutes after the ending here, and is from Murphy's POV.

[kmgrey]

Really enjoyed this one. Probably in the top 3 or 4 of the series (Dead Beat is first, then Small Favor, and Changes and Turn Coat would probably duke it out from there). I think my favorite scene was probably the Odin meeting.

I agree with pretty much all of the positives listed here but I did have a few disappointments:

- The Harry/Thomas thing was smoothed over way too much. I'm not sure if Butcher changed his mind on how to handle them after Turn Coat or he just felt like there was too much going on already in "Changes" to deal with the tension between the two of them. Personally I think it would have been better if Thomas hadn't been in the book at all but I with the whole blood curse thing it would have been awkward for him not to be there. I would probably have preferred a brief meeting like those with Odin, Uriel, and Marcone and then have Thomas working offstage the rest of the book.

- I really, really thought that Butcher was setting up a bait and switch. So much of the first half of the book had all of these major preparations going on between the Red Court and the White Council and Harry didn't care because he was so focused on finding Maggie. So I was really expecting to find out in the end that it had been a distraction to keep Harry from intervening in some other major plot. After numerous people kept counseling Harry that he was maybe putting lots of innocent lives at risk by just focusing on Maggie, I expected that to play out in the end with Harry perhaps rescuing Maggie only to find out there had been some kind of horrendous cost elsewhere.

- The Erlking sequences, cool as it was, felt extraneous. Would have been better served as a short story or perhaps as part of a later book where the Erlking could have been an actual part of the plot. Especially since the whole duel sequence would be repeated again not 100 pages later.

[obihal]

From jims forum. Next books name probably will be

"Ghost Story"

[Obdigore]

I would imagine that the Erlking thing is setup for future novels.

Also, it seems that Butcher threw in almost everything (including a kitchen sink, if you look carefully), as noted about the only people missing were the werewolves. Maybe that is who shot him? Yea right.

If the next book name is 'Ghost Story'... I bet the person who said it will be by someone else is right. Lets randomly speculate on who it is going to be, as if it concentrates on one person... I have money it will be the English Guy who is tight with luccio. He is investigating concerns about Harry by the new guy on the white council, at the council's request. Interactions with all sorts of people whilst trying to find Harry, and something from the eyes of someone with a very different upbringing and experiences than Harry.

that would be cool.

[Coco with marshmallows]

by the way, any thoughts about the 'black veins' that came off the staff and covered Ebenezer's hands?

I'm guessing some kind of curse for breaking the laws of magic, essentially there is a price to pay for what he does.

But - is there a long term effect?

thoughts?

[Imperial Historian]

I've always thought we'd end up with some ebeneezer goes bad storyline purely from what we've been told of the laws of magic, ie when you break them, it damages your mind in some way... clearly a wizard going round breaking the laws of magic willy nilly is going to have issues. Presumably the black staff attempts to minimise these effects, but wielding such a staff for a long time (at least ~130 years if hes responsible for krakatoa) will have some effect. That said the ebeneezer goes bad storyline is so obvious I'm kind of hoping butcher doesn't go there...

[Coco with marshmallows]

Imperial Historian, on 09 April 2010 - 10:39 PM, said:

I've always thought we'd end up with some ebeneezer goes bad storyline purely from what we've been told of the laws of magic, ie when you break them, it damages your mind in some way... clearly a wizard going round breaking the laws of magic willy nilly is going to have issues. Presumably the black staff attempts to minimise these effects, but wielding such a staff for a long time (at least ~130 years if hes responsible for krakatoa) will have some effect. That said the ebeneezer goes bad storyline is so obvious I'm kind of hoping butcher doesn't go there...

realistically, that's one of the two possible obvious ones for Ebeneezer.

The other, of course, being the "horrible death, leading to Harry swearing revenge route"
It wouldn't be a surprise if Butcher throws us for a loop on that one somehow.

[Morgoth]

Man that was a brilliant book!

Buther's off hand comment about Dresden being the Darth Vader of the council has to be foreshadowing of some sort.

Think about it. Dresden has become quite the infamous, and certainly more than a little feared, pariah of the council. He's perhaps the most powerful warden alive and pretty much the great hero to the new generation of wizards. He's stood up to the Merlin many times, always showing up tall, dark and haggard with his leather duster and staff. He's survived more in the last decade than most wizards experience in their lifetime.

Now he singlehandedly (that's what the legend will be I'm sure.. Can't talk about the grey council after all) destroyed the entire Red Court. He wiped out on his own the single most dangerous enemy the council has seen in god knows how long. And he did so while most of the Council was broken by some disease.

Man, he's got to be the single most terrifying individual in the wizardry world. Though I'm not a big fan or Jordan, it seems one can almost draw parallels between Rand's fall into dark lord mode, and Dresden's slow change through the books. It was mentioned a little in Turn Coat how living long lives in the wizard world makes one colder. Dresden, having lived through more horrors than most is becoming colder and more brutal by the book. What will he be by the end?

So yeah, at some point they're going to turn to him for leadership, but I guess that's sort of obvious with all the points tying him to the original merlin (who was mentioned as a person quite a lot this book).


Furthermore, I quite enjoyed learning a little about the origins of the Red Court. Clearly the tree kinds of vampires have come into being independently of one another, which explains why they are so different. It would also imply that the White Court is the youngest, and clearly the most dangerous.

Finally, I'm sort of surprised by Dresden's thoughts about being the winter knight. Really. The former summer knight, as well as the new one, were and are able it seems to reconcile the two parts of themselves. Winter is being presented as the big evil, but really, they're no more evil than is summer. When all is said and done, winter has done much better by Dresden than summer.

[Stalker]

Absolutely incredible. I wanted to read it slowly but Butcher just wouldn't let me.
At this point I really don't have too much to say aside from everything that has already been mentioned.

I did love having the Aesir as a factor, anything Mouse was awesome (powerup so Harry can talk to him all the time? Would be kinda cool).
Also the gem to travel the ways and know how they change was cool. Definitely expect that to be useful for awhile, though I wonder what effect it will have on Dresden if it actually comes at a cost as said.

[Abyss]

[quote name='kmgrey' date='08 April 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1270746105' post='748702']
...- The Harry/Thomas thing was smoothed over way too much. ...but I with the whole blood curse thing it would have been awkward for him not to be there. ... [/quote]

I agree with you on both point. I'm wondering whether there isn't some setup being done - this is the second time thie first being in TURN COAT where Molly and Thomas had some major mojo/threat/lust thing happening.

[quote] - The Erlking sequences, cool as it was, felt extraneous. ...[/quote]

Yep, but it did give Susan a Crowning Moment of Awesome when she did the 'jump over the Ick grab the vamp and jam its head into the magic firewall thingy' thing. I'm still wondering whether the point of this was to give Butcher the option to bring back the Red Court at some point with the Eebs as the new Big Bads.


[quote name='Obdigore' date='08 April 2010 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1270747705' post='748722']
I would imagine that the Erlking thing is setup for future novels.

Also, it seems that Butcher threw in almost everything (including a kitchen sink, if you look carefully), as noted about the only people missing were the werewolves. Maybe that is who shot him? Yea right... [/quote]

Unlikely, but yeah, the Sink was in there. ...plus the Fae, vampires, all three Councils to some degree, the Knights, Marcone, Gard and the Aesir, Butters, the White Court... the mind it reels. The Denariians weren't active but Harry's comment that he could summon Lashiel to him with a thought was VERY interesting. And i think Butcher was saving the Summer Court for a later novel because the impact of Harry's Winter Knight role will be VERY interesting on that relationship. Mind you, Fix wasn't exactly cuddles the last time we saw him.


[quote] If the next book name is 'Ghost Story'... ...I have money it will be the English Guy who is tight with luccio. ...[/quote]

I wonder about him, because he sort of came out of nowhere but the leter and related events seemed significant.

Like Tilly, i look fwd to seeing more.


Speaking of Tilly, anyone wanna bet the FBI guy takes Murphy's forced retirement as an opportunity to recruit her to the Bureau in a new 'Black Cats' type unit? (Anything to keep her from taking up the Sword full time, eh? )


[quote name='Cocoreturns' date='09 April 2010 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1270846701' post='749317']
by the way, any thoughts about the 'black veins' that came off the staff and covered Ebenezer's hands?

I'm guessing some kind of curse for breaking the laws of magic, essentially there is a price to pay for what he does.

But - is there a long term effect?

thoughts?
[/quote]

Many but it's in a total wait-and-see way. I wonder if the staff is a sort of combination channel and battery for the effects of the dark magic the Blackstaff has to use. I mean, Ebenezer killed 200 humans without pause. Harry's reaction was telling that that sort of thing is just NOT done. We haven't even seen bad guys weild that level of mojo before.

[quote name='Cocoreturns' date='09 April 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1270853830' post='749345']
[quote name='Imperial Historian' date='09 April 2010 - 11:39 PM' timestamp='1270852741' post='749336']
I've always thought we'd end up with some ebeneezer goes bad storyline...That said the ebeneezer goes bad storyline is so obvious I'm kind of hoping butcher doesn't go there...
[/quote]

realistically, that's one of the two possible obvious ones for Ebeneezer.

The other, of course, being the "horrible death, leading to Harry swearing revenge route"
It wouldn't be a surprise if Butcher throws us for a loop on that one somehow.
[/quote]

I was speculating that Harry would end up in the Blackstaff role eventually but between Demonsreach and the Winter Knight role that now seems unlikely. Not impossible but unlikely.

Plus we haven't even begun to see the implications of the revelation of their familial relationship.

[quote name='Morgoth' date='09 April 2010 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1270860335' post='749392']
Man that was a brilliant book!

Buther's off hand comment about Dresden being the Darth Vader of the council has to be foreshadowing of some sort... [/quote]

i KNOW. But maybe not in the obvious way.

[quote Think about it. Dresden has become quite the infamous, and certainly more than a little feared, pariah of the council. He's perhaps the most powerful warden alive and pretty much the great hero to the new generation of wizards. He's stood up to the Merlin many times, always showing up tall, dark and haggard with his leather duster and staff. He's survived more in the last decade than most wizards experience in their lifetime.

Now he singlehandedly (that's what the legend will be I'm sure.. Can't talk about the grey council after all) destroyed the entire Red Court. He wiped out on his own the single most dangerous enemy the council has seen in god knows how long. And he did so while most of the Council was broken by some disease.

Man, he's got to be the single most terrifying individual in the wizardry world. Though I'm not a big fan or Jordan, it seems one can almost draw parallels between Rand's fall into dark lord mode, and Dresden's slow change through the books. It was mentioned a little in Turn Coat how living long lives in the wizard world makes one colder. Dresden, having lived through more horrors than most is becoming colder and more brutal by the book. What will he be by the end?

So yeah, at some point they're going to turn to him for leadership, but I guess that's sort of obvious with all the points tying him to the original merlin (who was mentioned as a person quite a lot this book). [/quote]

There was an awesome quote to this effect in TURN COAT, i've ref'd it often enough elsethread. I'm really, REALLY curious to see how Butcher handles the temptations and impulses that the Winter Knight role will provide Harry. The repeatedly comments on his nastier actions being 'cold' (especially at the end with Susan) could not have been coincidence.

[quote] Furthermore, I quite enjoyed learning a little about the origins of the Red Court. Clearly the tree kinds of vampires have come into being independently of one another, which explains why they are so different. It would also imply that the White Court is the youngest, and clearly the most dangerous.[/quote]

I tend to agree they evolved separately and even the term 'vampire' is used loosely, the White being more like succubi than bloodsuckers. I remain VERY curious about the Jade court and whether we'll even ever see them, maybe making a move with the vacuum left by the Red Court going pooft.

[quote] Finally, I'm sort of surprised by Dresden's thoughts about being the winter knight. Really. The former summer knight, as well as the new one, were and are able it seems to reconcile the two parts of themselves. Winter is being presented as the big evil, but really, they're no more evil than is summer. When all is said and done, winter has done much better by Dresden than summer.[/quote]

True, and Lea more than once shows a surprisingly 'humane' side (particularly her pride when Harry took out Arianna and her promise to bury Susan somewhere Harry could visit) altho little things like her considering keeping them all as Hounds or her comment on the priestess as a human sacrifice ("Hardly anyone is that polite any more!") show the other side too... is it just me or did Lea steal virtually every scene she was in?

Anyhow, even back in SUMMER KNIGHT we saw that the Summer Fae aren't exactly cuddly and warm all the time.

[quote name='Stalker' date='10 April 2010 - 07:05 PM' timestamp='1270940719' post='749721']
Absolutely incredible. I wanted to read it slowly but Butcher just wouldn't let me.
At this point I really don't have too much to say aside from everything that has already been mentioned.

I did love having the Aesir as a factor, anything Mouse was awesome (powerup so Harry can talk to him all the time? Would be kinda cool). [/quote]

I suspect Butcher will dodge having Mouse as a talking dog all the time but it WAS neat. I remember when Butcher introduced the Knight and Denarians i was surprised that he was incorporation 'judeo-christian' elements into the world, but Gard was clearly a Valkyrie from day one and this was a nice expansion. Which also leaves it open for Butcher to throw in all kinds of other elements, altho Odin's comment that most of the old gods are gone keeps it from going too far.

[quote] Also the gem to travel the ways and know how they change was cool. Definitely expect that to be useful for awhile, though I wonder what effect it will have on Dresden if it actually comes at a cost as said.
[/quote]


I'm also wondering whether that isn't laying the grounds for Harry's mom to return.

Just finished a re-read. Damn that was great. I missed this awesome bit of foreshadoing right at the end... (paraphrased) "Canned soup and chili. Worse last meal ever."

- Abyss, now REALLY needs to reread the series...