[Jorram]

Well, I think this quote

Quote

‘Unlike Tiam,’ Ampelas said, ‘when we’re killed we stay dead.’

shows it 100% that Tiam does get reborn also when killed (not only when giving birth).

It seems to me that Otataral is way older than its current manifestations (the otataral desert, etc). Heboric muses that otataral is created during big magical conflagrations (The Telann ritual - likely on Genabackis, the Soletaken Ritual on 7Cities, etc..) but it doesnt mean that it doesnt exist in other places since the dawn of time. It is most likley that Korabas and Tiam always existed together (as i think also did MD and FL).

Yet again it is interesting now that we know the opposition between draconic and otataral power, how come Spite uses tha latter when invoking Starvald Demelain at the release of Dejim Nebral. Maybe it's just another aspect of the "one cant exist without the other" thing. SD magic was needed to be mixed in with the other warrens to create otataral and break the wards around Dejim.

A little offtopic - whom did the OD kill on the plane of the Wastelends in DoD, around p. 250 (Kalyth gets explained the whole OD/Tiam dial by the KCCM). There is a dragon skeleton and it says that an otataral fang is driven so deep in the dragon's skull that it got torn apart from its owner's jaw. The OD is further called the Slayer and Kalyth muses it killed "your god" (=Tiam) though she is not of course sure or any reliable source.

Was it just random dragons OD was killing, is that why he was chained? The Wastelands seem to be somehow connected to dragons. All the Rooted things, and then remember that quote in RG or MT in one of the chapter headings about people heading east of Awl once, only to witness scores and scores of dragons in the sky.

Sorry for the a little bit incoherent post, but one final thought - is it possible that the OD was chained not in order to get back at him, but in order to drive Tiam away? Since she can't be killed (as we saw), maybe the way to get at her would be to chain down her counterpart. Remember that the halfbloods sealed the SD warren because the dragons "started to interfere", laying chaos and waste to all the worlds (iirc). It seems dragons and hence Tiam have always been a threat to everyone else so chaining the OD was a way to prevent that?

[Ulrik]

Who killed her?
Rake. Why? I try to be non-malazan in this case. He is Marduk.

I feel connection between Tiam and babylonian/ akkadian pre-goddess (or primal goddess, arch-goddess) Tiamat.
In short version of Enuma Elish by Ulrik™ - Marduk, lord of storm, magic, judgment, champion among not-so-powerful gods, slays Tiamat (ti = living, life, ama = mother), tear her into two pieces and makes from her body world. What is more important is that from this act raises first wave of new deities (in malazan case - drinkers of her blood).
IMHO is Rake in this part clearly Marduk. Further, in Enuma Elish is Tiamat described as "something" giving birth to dragons.

But its just thoughts about similarities I found...

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 26 March 2010 - 01:34 PM

[tiam]

Ive never been very good on this type of thing but were does it say that Tiam is now dead. I remember a quote (BH possibly) that Tiam cannot rise once more but could that simply reflect the balance with the Otateral dragon olimiting Timas involvement.

To that end could Rake be one of the ones who imprisoned the OD (cant remember its name) as a sort of balance to keep Tiam away/imprisoned by the very nature of balance and does this represent him cleaning up his mess kinda thing. By setting the kill-Tiam-for- a- laugh precedent and causing all sorts of shit by letting Tiam be killed and by ambitious individuals who want to become Eleint does he not then, as one of the OD imprisoners, re balance to equation at least to a certain extent?

Again quote fu and other more useful knowledge has abondoned me

[worry]

Hetan, on 26 March 2010 - 08:37 AM, said:

As for who took down the otataral dragon - those names are known and K'rul is amongst them. Whether Korabas is the one who did not join K'ruls bargain, well we don't know that, but I think it is more likely to be her than Silannah. The argument for that is that the otataral dragon was imprisoned so that K'rul's warrens could exist - after all, her otataral power negates human warrens, it is not supposed to affect Elder warrens.

Where do we, the readers, learn who took Korabas down? I recall the names being written nearby, but Lostara and Pearl could certainly not read them.

[Jorram]

I agree. We know the list of those who sealed the gate to SD in the Refugium. For Korabas, only stepmarks in the dust.

Btw I don't get it why people consider the possibility of Silanah not accepting K'rul's bargain. It's spelled out black on white in the Cotillion-Ampelas&Co. conversation in tBH that Silanah is aspected to Thyr, along with i-cant-recall-who of the three dragons. She obviously DID join the bargain.

[D'rek]

Jorram, on 27 March 2010 - 07:26 AM, said:

I agree. We know the list of those who sealed the gate to SD in the Refugium. For Korabas, only stepmarks in the dust.

Btw I don't get it why people consider the possibility of Silanah not accepting K'rul's bargain. It's spelled out black on white in the Cotillion-Ampelas&Co. conversation in tBH that Silanah is aspected to Thyr, along with i-cant-recall-who of the three dragons. She obviously DID join the bargain.

Well, because she didn't flee into SD and hangs out with Rake instead. Of course, it seems neither did Kalse, Eloth, Ampelas, Korabas or Sorrit...

I don't think those are really the same, though
- K'rul's bargain with the Shapers to make them aspected, with Korabas rejecting it and becoming the otataral dragon,
- and in contrast to Draconus hunting down dragons and forcing them back into SD, with Silanah staying with Rake instead (leading to a Dragnipur-exchanging confrontation between Draconus and Rake??)


also, yeah, I don't recall any ref to K'rul being known as one of the ones who chained Korabas. The fact that pearl noted six markings in the IW always made me think it was Silanah, Rake and his four TA Soletaken followers (Rake and Silanah being the "two big ones")

[Sinisdar Toste]

quite possible. and if our speculation that the chaining of the OD was done to keep Tiam out of action and unable to create more soletaken eleint is correct, rake would feel a moral obligation to stop the "red rain" from descending upon all the realms

[Jorram]

Rake and Silanah are zomg-incredibly-powerful but it seems a little beyond them to singlehandedly (with a few TA) chain THE OTATARAL DRAGON
(who also kind of negates their magic mojos..)

[Sinisdar Toste]

not starvald demelain or kurald galain. elder magic isn't affected by otataral. i can only assume that it would hold true whether its an entire otataral dragon or a sword or what have you.

[Hetan]

D, on 28 March 2010 - 09:38 PM, said:

Jorram, on 27 March 2010 - 07:26 AM, said:

I agree. We know the list of those who sealed the gate to SD in the Refugium. For Korabas, only stepmarks in the dust.

Btw I don't get it why people consider the possibility of Silanah not accepting K'rul's bargain. It's spelled out black on white in the Cotillion-Ampelas&Co. conversation in tBH that Silanah is aspected to Thyr, along with i-cant-recall-who of the three dragons. She obviously DID join the bargain.

Well, because she didn't flee into SD and hangs out with Rake instead. Of course, it seems neither did Kalse, Eloth, Ampelas, Korabas or Sorrit...

I don't think those are really the same, though
- K'rul's bargain with the Shapers to make them aspected, with Korabas rejecting it and becoming the otataral dragon,
- and in contrast to Draconus hunting down dragons and forcing them back into SD, with Silanah staying with Rake instead (leading to a Dragnipur-exchanging confrontation between Draconus and Rake??)


also, yeah, I don't recall any ref to K'rul being known as one of the ones who chained Korabas. The fact that pearl noted six markings in the IW always made me think it was Silanah, Rake and his four TA Soletaken followers (Rake and Silanah being the "two big ones")

We do not know for sure who chained Korabas except that the way to SD was shut by :-

Quote

. The place where the road comes from is closed. By the mixed bloods who gathered long ago. Draconus, K’rul, Anomandaris, Osserc, Silchas Ruin, Scabandari, Sheltatha Lore, Sukul Ankhadu, and
Menandore.

Well we already know that those three, Kalse, Ampelas and Eloth did accept K'rul's bargain. We also know about Sorritt - her aspect was Serc - the warren of the sky - which seems pretty much human aspected no?

Unless of course the otataral dragon is indeed sealing a gate as speculated in HoC - and that is why she was chained there - in which case we know who chained her, and yes there are more than six names there... get over it already.

Where does "K'ruls' bargain with the Shapers to make them aspected" come from? The dragons are aspected already - they are elemental forces.

- and Korabas - she didn't become the otataral dragon, that is her aspect.

[Jorram]

"Aspected" maybe as in aspected to warrens. Silanah is aspected to Thyr. Cotillion says it in tBH and the dragons acknowledge it.
Therefore she isn't the one who refused K'rul's bargain.

Where did it mention about such a dragon again, anyway?

[D'rek]

Hetan, on 30 March 2010 - 09:06 PM, said:

D, on 28 March 2010 - 09:38 PM, said:

Jorram, on 27 March 2010 - 07:26 AM, said:

I agree. We know the list of those who sealed the gate to SD in the Refugium. For Korabas, only stepmarks in the dust.

Btw I don't get it why people consider the possibility of Silanah not accepting K'rul's bargain. It's spelled out black on white in the Cotillion-Ampelas&Co. conversation in tBH that Silanah is aspected to Thyr, along with i-cant-recall-who of the three dragons. She obviously DID join the bargain.

Well, because she didn't flee into SD and hangs out with Rake instead. Of course, it seems neither did Kalse, Eloth, Ampelas, Korabas or Sorrit...

I don't think those are really the same, though
- K'rul's bargain with the Shapers to make them aspected, with Korabas rejecting it and becoming the otataral dragon,
- and in contrast to Draconus hunting down dragons and forcing them back into SD, with Silanah staying with Rake instead (leading to a Dragnipur-exchanging confrontation between Draconus and Rake??)


also, yeah, I don't recall any ref to K'rul being known as one of the ones who chained Korabas. The fact that pearl noted six markings in the IW always made me think it was Silanah, Rake and his four TA Soletaken followers (Rake and Silanah being the "two big ones")

We do not know for sure who chained Korabas except that the way to SD was shut by :-

Quote

. The place where the road comes from is closed. By the mixed bloods who gathered long ago. Draconus, K'rul, Anomandaris, Osserc, Silchas Ruin, Scabandari, Sheltatha Lore, Sukul Ankhadu, and
Menandore.

Chaining Korabas and sealing SD - not the same event by any knowledge we have.

Hetan, on 30 March 2010 - 09:06 PM, said:

Where does "K'ruls' bargain with the Shapers to make them aspected" come from? The dragons are aspected already - they are elemental forces.

- and Korabas - she didn't become the otataral dragon, that is her aspect.

It comes from:

tBH p. 94 said:

'I am Eloth, Mistress of Illusions - Meanas to you - and Mockra and Thyr. A Shaper of the Blood. All that K'rul asked of me, I have done. And now you presume to question my loyalty?
[...]
'And I should now presume that for each of the warrens, Elder and new, there is a corresponding dragon? You are the flavours of K'rul's blood?'
[...]
'once these dragons did what K'rul asked of them, they were compelled to return to Starvald Demelain. As the sources of sorcery, they could not be permitted to interfere or remain active across the realms, lest sorcery cease to be predictable, which in turn would feed Chaos.'
[...]
'Then again, you too claim Thyr, Eloth. Ah, that was clever of K'rul, forcing you to share power.'

^^if the dragons were already the sources of the different warrens, then a} K'rul would have had no say over them sharing their aspects or anything like that; and b} they would have been needed to be compelled to return to SD from the very beginning, rather than after some obscure favour for K'rul.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 31 March 2010 - 04:25 AM

[worry]

I'm just getting my thoughts in order, not necessarily adding anything new to the table.

From the Pearl/Lostara visit in HoC: There's a Kurald Thyrllan gate just "over the ledge" from where the Otataral Dragon is pinned. It's unsealed, and it's what the dragons who crucified her left through. Korabas herself is contained within a spherical pocket warren, so it's very doubtful that she's sealing a gate to anywhere. If Silanah is Thyr, then that lends some credence to her (and therefore Rake and his crew) making up the six. When Lostara mentions that dragons are supposed to be the essence of sorcery, Pearl explains that the Otataral dragon is therefore balance (so this notion started way earlier than DoD), and he hints that she has existed as long as any dragon for she "answers every other dragon that ever existed, or ever will." Not sure what this means for Olar Ethil.

Being pinned in the Imperial Warren would mean she was taken down after the calling of the Crippled God, right? Which means Tiam was probably killed the last time after CG arrived. I would imagine that there was essentially a convergence of major events at this time, and the MBotF is a second convergence to deal with the majority of the blowback from that earlier one. I guess I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if many of the major events that are mysteries to us now and culminating in the decade or so of this story, also happened within a short time of one another. The killing of Tiam and drinking of her blood (whether they're one event or many, it begins around this time), MD turning away and Rake et al entering Wu (and commandeering a sky keep, and meeting the Great Ravens). Rake being fairly familiar with the Imperial Warren could hint at how he got a Sky Keep. Is it mentioned anywhere how familiar K'rul and Rake are with each other?

Lastly, while Korabas is constantly referred to as a she, and is mentioned in HoC to be pinned to a four-story wooden cruciform, the Consort is always referred to as a he, and crucified to a tree. I really wonder if they are the same entity or not.

[Hetan]

The dragons were already the sources of sorcery (as quoted above) before their bargain with K'rul, but this very bargain - to help create the HUMAN ASPECTED warrens (from their eleint aspected sorcery) - is what made it necessary for them to return to SD, lest sorcery become unstable - what is ambiguous about that?

As an example - Silannah did not become aspected to Thyr by K'rul- she already had that power - she gave it to K'rul to shape the human aspected warren of Thyr. (if indeed she did)

It's fairly obvious from the scene with the dragons that they have more than one aspect each and that they would sieze power from each other at any opportunity and therefore could not be left loose on the mortal realm.

Regarding the post above by worrywort - it makes perfect sense that the dragons who chained the otataral dragon used Kurald Thyrlan as it has been used before by dragons to gain immunities and proofs against other magics and worse - They would need all the help they could get.

The arrival of the Crippled God on Wu (circa 150,000 years before Burns sleep) happened a long time after Rake et al entered the realm so that theory doesn't work, but I like it.

[D'rek]

Hetan, on 31 March 2010 - 07:44 AM, said:

As an example - Silannah did not become aspected to Thyr by K'rul- she already had that power - she gave it to K'rul to shape the human aspected warren of Thyr. (if indeed she did)

So you're saying she was already aspected to Light and presumably conducted the power of the elder warren of light - Kurald Thyrllan - and then later on with K'rul shaped this power into Thyr?

If so, then how come Ampelas is the dragon that shaped Emurlahn (which itself implies that K'rul's blood-shaping business was done on the elder warrens as well as the Paths), while the Path of Shadow was shaped by a different dragon - Eloth.

[Hetan]

Why is there a problem with Ampelas being a shaper of Emurlahn and Eloth a shaper of Meanas?

[D'rek]

Hetan, on 31 March 2010 - 03:04 PM, said:

Why is there a problem with Ampelas being a shaper of Emurlahn and Eloth a shaper of Meanas?

Well why would one dragon who is aspected to Shadow create Kurald Emurlahn, and then later when K'rul wants to make the Paths a different dragon shapes Meanas and the shadow dragon who is the source of Elder shadow magic would not?

[Hetan]

Probably for the same reasons we have three dragons with Thyr as an aspect

[D'rek]

Hetan, on 31 March 2010 - 04:01 PM, said:

Probably for the same reasons we have three two dragons with Thyr as an aspect

Not the same thing. Maybe Eloth and Silanah both were light-aspected, both made Kurald Thyrllan's magic and then both helped K'rul make Thyr. But why would Eloth and Ampelas both be Shadow-aspected (Eloth gets around), but only of them makes Meanas and the other only makes Kurald Emurlahn? What was Eloth doing with her shadow-aspect before Meanas was ever made? She just sat on it while Ampelas made Emurlahn?

[Sinisdar Toste]

i have to agree with d'rek on this one. the idea of dragons being born aspected to a certain warren feels wrong in my mind. in the absence of sufficient evidence thats what i'm going with.