[Hetan]

We're having a debate elsewhere regarding this issue.
I maintain that the only name we have seen of who killed Tiam was Rake (other than through childbirth) and others maintain that others have also killed her, so I would be interested to see what names everyone can come up with here and the relevant quotes.

After Tiam was killed, others drank in Anomander's wake, and the gates to SD were sealed to prevent others getting in and drinking her blood (remember this is a "magical" dragon folks so there's no reason to suppose the blood would remain anything but fresh), but I cannot recall anyone else "killing" her so any information would be appreciated.

[HoosierDaddy]

I've watched this debate between you and D'rek within that thread. My only problem with the "one time kill" and subsequent feeding is that so many seemed to have fed from Tiam for it to be strange for just one death to have occurred. You address this with the "magical blood flow" argument.

However, that is also concluding that K'rul and the other Elder Gods also drank of Tiam from that same time, and are sole-taken eleint for the same reason Anomandaris, Silchas, Scabandari, etc. are. The time frame here seems to me to be off. The Tiste are doing their thing while the Elder gods are as well.... is that what led them to their invasion? Why would the Elder God's need to become Soletaken? Or are they naturally Eleint who have just evolved beyond everyone else?

This post has been edited by H.D.: 25 March 2010 - 08:23 AM

[anothevilbadguy]

I would have to vote for the multiple slayings. For a few reasons:

It seems a lot of guys drank her blood.
Comments by one of the sisters that it doesn't matter how many times she dies she always comes back.
And I am quite sure in the scene where Icarium and Mappo see the staked Dragon the blood has crystallised, so it would suggest there wouldn't be an awful lot of time for all the rest to drink after Rake did the slaying.
And I cannot see Osserc taking any of Rake's leavings.

It was my understanding that Mother Dark was pissed with Rake more due to him mixing dark with chaos, rather than the killing of Tiam per se.

[HoosierDaddy]

There is always the newly proposed balance argument. With the Otataral Dragon being locked away on Wu, Tiam could no longer regenerate herself after death.

[Grief]

HDs argument above is also possible. However, I see it in reverse. IIRC Rake is listed as soletaken eleint on the list of those who imprisoned the Otataral dragon.
So, I would argued that if it's a balance thing, the Otataral dragon was imprisoned because Rake had slain Tiam.

@Anothevilbadguy: Isn't it mentioned that Osseric became soletaken as a lover, not a slayer? So, it would seem not all of them seem to have to slay tiam.

I agree with Hetan. I think that Rakes killing was somehow more permanent. It's possible this is because of the drinking. We know that blood=power, and with her blood spread amongst the eleint, it's possible she was prevented from being reborn.

What I feel an important distiction is that most soletaken eleint aren't mentioned as actually having drunk directly from Tiam(we actually know of relatively few who are confirmed to have done so). Many of them are simply referenced as having Tiams blood, or being of tiams blood. We know for example that Nimander did not drink directly from Tiam, nor Menandore, Rud Elalle etc. So it can be passed on, inherited, and doesn't have to come directly from Tiam. Since it can be inherited, it stands to reason that you do not need to drink directly from Tiam, you could do it from anyone with her blood. Doesn't Icarium make a comment something along those lines while standing over Sorrit?
And if any eleint would do the trick, it could easily explain the amount of people with Tiams blood.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I disagree with the argument that her blood will stay fresh and flowing forever once killed. We've seen several times that dragon blood hardens into basically a rock, and then does some funky stuff. The Builder of the Azath makes a whole house out of it I believe. Also I think when we get a flashback of the sundering we see dragon blood hardening, and then falling through the realms for some reason. And in Reapers Gale we find out that it calls out to all the tiste wraiths, and then if they get too close it traps them inside. Silchas even warns Wither(?) that if he gets caugt there's nothing Silchas can do to free him.

Obviously everything could be different for Tiam, but I thought I'd just throw my two cents in.

[Ulrik]

Marduk? Oh, sorry, bad mythology...

[anothevilbadguy]

So, is the idea that Tiam has stayed dead since Rake killed her. And all her children etc pre-date this slaying. It seems unlikely to me that the Menandore, Sukul and Shelthatha all pre-date the original slaying. It also seems unlikely that someone who is still talked about so much has been out of the game so long. And it also seems to imply that Korabas has to have been out of the game, i.e. staked, since then, following on from what Sag'Churok was talking about the balancing forces of magic.

Isn't Korabas the dragon who dismissed Krul's offer? (or was that Silanah) Because if it was she certainly has to have been active after the Tiam's slaying by Rake, and in turn that means Tiam would have to have been.

I guess there is an argument that Rake is the only one who slayed Tiam, but then either all of dragon's blood creates soletaken or Tiam got busy with everybody. But I cannot see that Tiam has been effectively dead since Mother Dark turned away.

[Grief]

anothevilbadguy, on 25 March 2010 - 07:31 PM, said:

So, is the idea that Tiam has stayed dead since Rake killed her. And all her children etc pre-date this slaying. It seems unlikely to me that the Menandore, Sukul and Shelthatha all pre-date the original slaying. It also seems unlikely that someone who is still talked about so much has been out of the game so long. And it also seems to imply that Korabas has to have been out of the game, i.e. staked, since then, following on from what Sag'Churok was talking about the balancing forces of magic.

Isn't Korabas the dragon who dismissed Krul's offer? (or was that Silanah) Because if it was she certainly has to have been active after the Tiam's slaying by Rake, and in turn that means Tiam would have to have been.

I guess there is an argument that Rake is the only one who slayed Tiam, but then either all of dragon's blood creates soletaken or Tiam got busy with everybody. But I cannot see that Tiam has been effectively dead since Mother Dark turned away.

Is it ever confirmed whether or not Menandore, Sheltathatha, and Sukul are actually Tiams daughters directly?

[Tapper]

I'm hardly a book-buff, but it seems to me there are a few issues with Tiam being killed just once. I can see the Three Andii Brothers, Korlat, Orfantal and other Rakists joining in the killing/drinking all by themselves. They are allies/family/trusted retainers.

But what of Scabandari, Tulas Shorn, Osseric, the other Tiste princes and princesses? They are not allies, they're enemies who may be exploited or maneuvered by Anomander, but they're not people you'd voluntarily give access to draconian powers to - which at the least a few of them obtain.

It seems Anomander was the first to become a soletaken Eleint, so why would he allow others into his wake when he could seal/guard the gate to SD before that? (more on this later).

We know that Osserc did the beast with the two backs with Tiam, was that before, during or after the Tiste wars? I know appearances change and deceive, but none of the reported children seem to fit the Tiste descriptions, which is something that IS true of Anomander, Andarist, Silchas (albino), Osserc and Scabandari (when we see him), Tulas Shorn.

If Tiam died just the once, then this coupling and birth business (also with Scabby) has to be before Anomander slew Tiam - thus, when/before the civil wars were underway and the Andii weren't yet forced into flight, Scabandari and Osserc somehow both found the time to knock Tiam up and get her to spawn 3 children that wildly vary from what we have come to expect of Soletaken, yet none of these 3 children become (known) powerplayers in the cival war. If they didn't become Soletaken then, then when?

Admittedly, evidence of the civil wars is very sketchy and mostly based on that boardgame played by whatshisname and Seerdomin, but still... How likely is it that Sukul, Menandore and that third one had no role to play? They are spawn of leaders and the mother of dragons. We've also seen how fast Rud Elalle grows, and he's second generation and half mortal to boot.

If the sex didn't make Osserc/Scabs Soletaken, when did they (Osserc/ Scabs) drink of her blood? It seems likely to me that they weren't the first, judging from MDs described reaction and the banishment of Anomander as a reaction to him becoming Eleint.
As said above, it seems unlike Anomander to give such power away to just about anyone wandering past her corpse/ knowing what to look for. And even if he does, for his ways are unfathomable ™ then it most certainly isn't like Scabandari. So, even if Tiam bleeds forever, we have either too many Soletaken, or not enough of them by a long shot.

Finally, what of the Elders who are soletaken, like OE? (leaving Draconus out of this, although the name seems to more than hint as his nature... maybe he started off as the Consort of Tiam?). It is said the EG are neither MDs, nor, I assume, Tiams, but they were around when there was only Darkness. So, did they start out as Eleint, or did these cosmic powers also drink of her blood?

/end rambling. Apologies for that, for I have consumed too much alcohol.

[Jorram]

Apart from my arguments in the other thread, and some from people in this thread, I also don't really think that the sealing of Starvald Demelain had anything to do with preventing other people from drinking Tiam's blood. Can anyone find quotes for that?

The sealing is mentioned mostly in Udinaas' first dreamtravel to the Refugium in MT and possibly again in RG, but it was always my impression that SD was sealed to prevent the dragons from laying waste on the rest of the worlds (I'm sure thats even specifically mentioned), as opposed to keeping Tiam's blood safe from drinkers.

[worry]

I don't have any answers, but I'm curious, Hetan (and everyone else, whether you agree with Hetan or not), who you think took down the Otataral dragon? And when? And were they in league with Anomander Rake in what he perhaps did to Tiam, or taking care of a problem that came as a result of his actions, or was it Rake again, or something else all together? It was supposedly six dragons, two of whom were "big bastards." And they escaped into Kurald Thyrrlan. So who are the candidates? Perhaps it's why Osserc is hiding out in dreamland. The Otataral dragon is alive, so when released I suppose she will be after whoever did it. On the other hand, Tiam won't have Rake to exact revenge on if it was him. Perhaps Draconus killed one or the other of them, and that's in turn why Rake killed him. Though I guess it would have to have been someone with a stake in the younger magics since elder magic isn't affected by otataral...so K'rul? Or perhaps Olar Ethil, who claims to be trying to save humanity, and who is after all Tiam's undead twin. She's kind of the third entity in the background of Tiam and Korabas though. If Anomander Rake is a benefactor of humankind, which is a big but not totally crazy if, then perhaps Tiam was required to disappear for K'rul to shape the warrens. Lastly, for a wild card, I'll just toss out that Telorast and Curdle are the two big bastards. A lot of you guys are much stronger Malazan scholars than I am, with entirely impressive memories, and I still have more questions than answers on this big double-mystery.

[MTS]

Alright, I figure quotage is the best way to disseminate all the apparently conflicting info we have.

First off, MD's tirade to Rake.

MD and Rake in TTH said:

'You have killed Tiam. My son, do you realize what you have begun? Silchas flees, yes, and where do you think he goes? And the newborn, the others, what scent will draw them now, what taste of chaotic power? Anomander, in murder you seek peace, and now the blood flows and there shall be no peace, not ever again.'
...
'Without the blood of Tiamatha, I could never have enforced...peace, unification.’

Ampelas in BH said:

‘Unlike Tiam,’ Ampelas said, ‘when we’re killed we stay dead.’

Udinaas in MT said:

Silchas Ruin. Tiste Andii, who fed in the wake of his brother — fed on Tiam’s blood, and drank deep. Deeper than Anomander Rake by far. Darkness and chaos. He would have accepted the burden of godhood… had he been given the chance.

Sukul, Menandore and Osseric in MT said:

‘But you can’t,’ Menandore said with strange glee. ‘We’re all poisoned by the mother’s blood, after all—’

Sukul Ankhadu swung to her sister with the words, ‘Her daughters have fared worse than poison! There is nothing balanced to this shattering of selves. Look at us! Spiteful bitches - Tiam’s squalling heads rearing up again and again, generation after generation!’ She stabbed a finger at the Tiste man. ‘And what of you, Father? That she-nightmare sails out on feathered wings from the dark of another realm, legs spread oh so wide and inviting, and were you not first in line? Pure Osserc, First Son of Dark and Light, so precious! Yet there you were, weaving your blood with that whore - tell us, did you proclaim her your sister before or after you fucked her?’

If the venom of her words had any effect, there was no outward sign. The one named Osserc simply smiled and looked away. ‘You shouldn’t speak of your mother that way, Sukul. She died giving birth to you, after all—’

‘She died giving birth to us all!’ Sukul Ankhadu’s raised hand closed into a fist that seemed to twist the air. ‘Dies, and is reborn. Tiam and her children. Tiam and her lovers. Her thousand deaths, and yet nothing changes’

Thus, we can conclude with relative certainty (assuming the reliability of our sources) that Anomander was probably the first to slay Tiam, to get at her blood, and with it the vast power of the Eleint. We can also conclude that Silchas did not kill Tiam, since he fed 'in the wake of' his brother. However, we also know from the mouths of two Eleints that Tiam has died more than once. It doesn't make sense then for Anomander's slaying to have been permenent, since Tiam died giving birth to Menandore, Sheltatha and Sukul. Tiam had a big itch that needed scratching, and we know that at the least Osseric, Scabandari and Draconus did the boom-boom-pow with her to spawn children. Either the sex and mingling of fluids inherent there (eww) makes them Soletaken (dragon sex is violent, I imagine), or when their kid was born, they decided to have a little drink (because sex is so tiring, you know?).

So we know Anomander's slaying wasn't permanent. So which one was? Presumably it isn't any of the three above. If we subscribe to the balancing theory between the OD and Tiam, then it makes sense that Tiam died when the Otataral Dragon was chained, which was long after the civil wars, and presumably during or after the creations of the warrens; the dragons weren't embodiments of sorcery when they were created, since they 'accepted what K'rul offered them'. I am of the opinion that Otataral was created when the Jade first hit Wu, or at the Fall. So Otataral as a force is created, and so Korabas is born/created/takes up the mantle of OD, K'rul realises it needs to be chained, and is subsequently nailed to a cross. Tiam then must turn away, and bam, Tiam is permanently dead, at least until TCG.

As for the EGs, I think they are the first children, and got their Eleintness (if any of them are Eleint - it seems odd Killy would be, considering her hate) the normal way, or are affiliated with the Dragon Hold (Draconus is Liege, not Consort by the way). It seems unlikely that they are pure Eleint. I think this because of this exchange:

Quote

The two women were clearly startled by this. After a moment, Menandore asked, ‘Who managed that?’

The man shrugged. ‘Does it matter? It was Scabandari’s conceit to think this world’s gods had not the power to oppose him.’ He paused then to eye his daughters speculatively, and said, ‘Heed that as a warning, my dears. Mother Dark’s first children were spawned without need of any sire. And, despite what Anomander might claim, they were not Tiste Andii.’

Menandore asks who killed Scabandari, and then Osserc tells them to heed the EG's slaying as a warning, and follows up with a cryptic statement about the first children. Not terribly convincing, but it's the best theory I think.

Oh, and Menandore and all them didn't participate in the civil wars because it was a civil war of the Andii, not anyone else. That's assuming they were even alive at the time, as well.

This post has been edited by MTS: 26 March 2010 - 05:10 AM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

One comment on your theory MTS. If Korabas is Tiam's opposite, shouldn't they have been born at the same time or come into being around the same time? You say that She wasn't created until the Jade Statues came and brought Otataral, and then after being chained, Tiam was forced to turn away. Why was Tiam able to survive without an opposite and not need to turn away for all those millennia before that?

[MTS]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 26 March 2010 - 05:48 AM, said:

One comment on your theory MTS. If Korabas is Tiam's opposite, shouldn't they have been born at the same time or come into being around the same time? You say that She wasn't created until the Jade Statues came and brought Otataral, and then after being chained, Tiam was forced to turn away. Why was Tiam able to survive without an opposite and not need to turn away for all those millennia before that?

Not necessarily, because before the warrens they weren't embodiments of sorcery, thus there's no need for balance. Just as MD could exist before Father Light.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

MTS, on 26 March 2010 - 05:59 AM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 26 March 2010 - 05:48 AM, said:

One comment on your theory MTS. If Korabas is Tiam's opposite, shouldn't they have been born at the same time or come into being around the same time? You say that She wasn't created until the Jade Statues came and brought Otataral, and then after being chained, Tiam was forced to turn away. Why was Tiam able to survive without an opposite and not need to turn away for all those millennia before that?

Not necessarily, because before the warrens they weren't embodiments of sorcery, thus there's no need for balance. Just as MD could exist before Father Light.

Fair point, but the problem I can see with that is that I don't think Tiam is an embodiment of warren sorcery. K'rul made her children the sources of power for the separate warrens. Tiam's only aspect seems to be chaos.

[MTS]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 26 March 2010 - 06:09 AM, said:

MTS, on 26 March 2010 - 05:59 AM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 26 March 2010 - 05:48 AM, said:

One comment on your theory MTS. If Korabas is Tiam's opposite, shouldn't they have been born at the same time or come into being around the same time? You say that She wasn't created until the Jade Statues came and brought Otataral, and then after being chained, Tiam was forced to turn away. Why was Tiam able to survive without an opposite and not need to turn away for all those millennia before that?

Not necessarily, because before the warrens they weren't embodiments of sorcery, thus there's no need for balance. Just as MD could exist before Father Light.

Fair point, but the problem I can see with that is that I don't think Tiam is an embodiment of warren sorcery. K'rul made her children the sources of power for the separate warrens. Tiam's only aspect seems to be chaos.

Wrong, Tiam's aspect is chaotic, but not chaos. Her aspect is SD, which is referred to as the Tiam Warren and The First Warren at some point.

This post has been edited by MTS: 26 March 2010 - 06:17 AM

[worry]

The line "do you realize what you have begun?" definitely, to me, seems like Anomander Rake has opened the floodgates to other Tiste people to kill Tiam and drink her blood, not that he killed her in a semi-permanent way. Silchas may have gone instantly in his wake, or it could just be a turn of phrase meaning he got the idea from Rake (as everyone did), and waited for her to regenerate (however long that takes), though I guess the former is more likely. Mother Dark is in fact warning him that his one act, which he found necessary, will have a ton of blowback in terms of other Tiste Andii (though "newborn" could refer to the other two Tiste peoples). In other words, his ends don't justify his means, and he has set an awful precedent.

In that light, it might be possible that some crafty monsters took down Korabas, knowing that someone was going to kill Tiam eventually for her blood and it would take her out of commission. The final killer of Tiam didn't need to be in on that plot at all. SE is all about unintended consequences, after all.

[Hetan]

Jorram, on 26 March 2010 - 01:46 AM, said:

Apart from my arguments in the other thread, and some from people in this thread, I also don't really think that the sealing of Starvald Demelain had anything to do with preventing other people from drinking Tiam's blood. Can anyone find quotes for that?

The sealing is mentioned mostly in Udinaas' first dreamtravel to the Refugium in MT and possibly again in RG, but it was always my impression that SD was sealed to prevent the dragons from laying waste on the rest of the worlds (I'm sure thats even specifically mentioned), as opposed to keeping Tiam's blood safe from drinkers.

“Anomander, Osserick and others had already tasted the blood of Tiam, and now there came more with raging thirst and many a demonic abomination was spawned of this crimson nectar So long as the Gates of Starvald Demelain remained open, unguarded and held by none, the war would not end, and so the red rain descended upon all the Realms.
“Kurald Liosan was the first realm to seal the portal between it and Starvald Demelain, and the tale that follows recounts the slaughter committed by Osserick in cleansing his world of all the pretenders and rivals, the Soletaken and feral purebloods, even unto driving the very first D’ivers from his land." TtH

As I said in my first post here - the only name quoted in having "killed" Tiam was Rake - I'd still like to see evidence of others having done the same deed.

As for who took down the otataral dragon - those names are known and K'rul is amongst them. Whether Korabas is the one who did not join K'ruls bargain, well we don't know that, but I think it is more likely to be her than Silannah. The argument for that is that the otataral dragon was imprisoned so that K'rul's warrens could exist - after all, her otataral power negates human warrens, it is not supposed to affect Elder warrens.

[MTS]

Hetan, on 26 March 2010 - 08:37 AM, said:

Jorram, on 26 March 2010 - 01:46 AM, said:

Apart from my arguments in the other thread, and some from people in this thread, I also don't really think that the sealing of Starvald Demelain had anything to do with preventing other people from drinking Tiam's blood. Can anyone find quotes for that?

The sealing is mentioned mostly in Udinaas' first dreamtravel to the Refugium in MT and possibly again in RG, but it was always my impression that SD was sealed to prevent the dragons from laying waste on the rest of the worlds (I'm sure thats even specifically mentioned), as opposed to keeping Tiam's blood safe from drinkers.

“Anomander, Osserick and others had already tasted the blood of Tiam, and now there came more with raging thirst and many a demonic abomination was spawned of this crimson nectar So long as the Gates of Starvald Demelain remained open, unguarded and held by none, the war would not end, and so the red rain descended upon all the Realms.
“Kurald Liosan was the first realm to seal the portal between it and Starvald Demelain, and the tale that follows recounts the slaughter committed by Osserick in cleansing his world of all the pretenders and rivals, the Soletaken and feral purebloods, even unto driving the very first D’ivers from his land." TtH

Yeah, but how reliable is that source?