Best Fist.

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Best Fist. Who is militarily superior?

#21 Silencer

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 05:33 AM

I do recall the quote, though not fully, but I think the relationship was inverted: Tavore was better than Paran.

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#22 Griven

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 01:15 PM

Maybe I'm remembering this wrong, but wasn't Whiskeyjack actually supposed to be promoted to fist but because of politics he wasn't promoted and Dujek led the army? And this is why Dujek always has Whiskeyjack around because he's possibly a better Military commander?

I dunno, just speculation here, but I do like Whiskeyjack way better than Dujek

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#23 Happy Shaman

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 02:19 PM

Wasn't the whole "outlaw One Arm's Host, but they're really still working for the empire" Whiskeyjacks idea? I have to re-re-read MOI, but I mean if it was, that's got to be one of the all time awesome strategies, whoever was the idea person...of course, it might have been Laseen...

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#24 Gothos

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 02:50 PM

I'm torn somewhere between Choss, Coltaine and Dujek.
As for Dassem, he created much of the military doctrine and rules of engagement, however he didn't really command in battle. The First Sword, once commited to battle, does not retreat from combat... and you can't really command from the middle of the fray. Dassem's role (along with his shock troop) was breaking the enemy's elite champions and relieving hard-pressed malazan troops, holding the line until reinforcements can arrive.

Choss (correct me if I'm wrong here, kinda fuzzy on RotCG) managed to somehow keep the battle going against the Crimson Guard.
Coltaine won multiple engagements against a vastly superior force, all the while escorting a host of refugees that gutted him on every step.
Dujek, however, managed to wage a long lasting campaign against such foes as Rake's Andii, Ilgres Barghast and the Crimson Guard and actually keep pushing them back. Matching wits against Brood and Rake is no small achievement.

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#25 D'rek

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 04:30 PM

Gothos, on 08 March 2010 - 02:50 PM, said:

I thought that too until Stormy had some flashbacks in DoD to Dassem's pre-battle let's-go-over-our-strategy bit, think Dassem may have been more than just the leader and sworderer. Hard to say for sure.

worrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.

#26 champ

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 04:33 PM

soon to be High Fist Kindley gonna pwn them all!

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#27 rhulad

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 05:35 PM

Wasn't Wiskeyjack at one time Dujek's commander? I know that were both members of the old gaurd, but it seems to me that Wiskey was at one point a high fist, and was demoted when Laseen took over.

#28 Illuyankas

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 07:59 PM

D, on 08 March 2010 - 01:54 AM, said:

Sure. Pormqual at least knows about properly spacing a rearguard behind the main column... Posted Image

Yeah, I just reread DG and holy fuckballs the part where he leaves Aren completely destroys all possible means you could bring to bear to make Pormqual seem anything other than the most useless commander in the history of dudes poncing about in fancy clothes on a horse and pointing.

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#29 WhiskeyJackDaniels

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 08:24 PM

D, on 08 March 2010 - 04:30 PM, said:

Gothos, on 08 March 2010 - 02:50 PM, said:

Dassem created the entire structure of the Malazan military, would come up with the original battle plan, and would then oversee it from the back before committing himself and the rest of the First Sword where it was needed. At which point he would turn command of the battle over to his subordinates.

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#30 Gothos

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 10:13 PM

Which is precisely what I mean. If he went in, it meant shit started getting serious. That's when a commander reacts to shitstorms flying around from a high vantage point. I think Gamet got lectured about that after he met a cusser in TBH.
Battles rarely go as planned, as I see it. You can create various contingencies to cover stuff that might happen, but you can never predict if a unit will break or not, you cannot predict everything beforehand. It's all cool having awesome plans like the Vathar crossing, or the Trell battle against Nemil, in a fantasy book, but that kind of shit doesn't happen.

Anyway, as I see it, a commander shouldn't enter the battle personally. He's there to give orders and oversee how things go. Bolstering morale and breaking lines? That's the place for a champion.

#31 Crow Clan Baby

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 03:53 PM

rhulad, on 08 March 2010 - 05:35 PM, said:

Wasn't Wiskeyjack at one time Dujek's commander? I know that were both members of the old gaurd, but it seems to me that Wiskey was at one point a high fist, and was demoted when Laseen took over.

You're right. Not sure if WJ was a High Fist though, but he was definitely Dujek's commander in ye olde dayes, and should probably be ranked higher.

#32 Bauchelain the Evil

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 06:37 PM

I personally don't think WJ is a tactical genius a là Dujek or Coltaine. In my mind I always thought that his strenght was the capacity to be loved by his troops and the same I would say for Dassem who in NoK seemed nothing more than a champion who would enter the battle when needed while Kellanved was the true tactician.

Saying this I will honestly go for Dujek. Apart from the suicide idea at Coral what we have heard through the series make him, IMO, the best general of the Malazan Empire.

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#33 Salt-Man Z

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 09:08 PM

The best fist is Chuck Norris' fist:

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#34 knight of shadows

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 03:12 AM

Wiskeyjack may not of been the tactical genius that Coltaine or Dujek was but he had to be quite tactically savvy because Kellanved didn't put people in positions that they weren't qualified to be in and at least in my opinion charisma in its self is not a qualification to become a commander

#35 RallickNomNomNom

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 02:16 AM

I thought for sure I remember Dassem Ultor being reffered to as high-fist, but I can't even remeber what I had for lunch, so that thought is suspect. And I agree about Dom, definitely not above WJ. WHETHER OR NOT he can use a rearguard effectively. lol xD. He lacks the level of respect that accompanies WJ.

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#36 Weltschmerz

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 09:54 PM

I'd say Tavore? Isn't that even explicitly stated in the books with how she used to beat the best commanders in theoretical battles during her training?

#37 wullagaru

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 10:04 PM

D, on 07 March 2010 - 10:33 PM, said:

H.D., on 07 March 2010 - 08:02 PM, said:

"His" agent? I think, in the end, that's rather backwards.

Also, Paran has the Host under his command. You can't write that one off as field promotion.

Sure I can - the Captains and Fists in the Host may call him 'High Fist' but he's really just some commander of an outlaw'd army that isn't part of the ME. But if you really think I should, personally I'd put him below Pormqual.

actually we were never told if the host was outlawed after Paran took over. The host was sent to 7c by the empire after Pale to put down the rebellion but got held up by plague and such.

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