[Slick Mongoose]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 25 March 2010 - 06:17 PM, said:

Slick Mongoose, on 24 March 2010 - 05:29 PM, said:

One of my main reasons for liking WoT is the subversion of the farmboy-fated-to-save-the-world trope. Yes, he is, but he's also fated to go insane and destroy the world.

But we all know that's not going to happen. At the end of the series he will be alive, sane, and the world will be saved.

Alas, I fear you're right.

[globish rip]

I wasn't even talking about RJ specifically, but as a general response to the fad of subverting clichés. It's sometimes warranted, but often it's the author's excuse for being unoriginal.

this is dumm. i dont really think this is a fad as much as just a reaction to the postmodern condition or w/e u want to call x thousand years of western culture & narrative cliches i mean "there are only seven plots in of all literature" &c

like w/r/t to the ending of wot - its hard to say whats less "cliched" to have the hero die a tragic death or to have him live triumphant. the "subversion" of the traditional heroic narrative is already old hat itself. the only thing u can ask as a critic/reader/human is that story is well-told and the ending earned: that its consonant w/the work as a whole that its affecting that its fully-realized. the baker comparison is kind of interesting to me bcuz i though the lotr stuff in the judging eye was really dumm but thought that w/ jordan its okay. partly i guess bcuz with jordan there are all these deliberate echoes of arthurian legend and celtic myth and world history already so the homage/rip-off makes sense in context. it fits better in a novel that is concerned/interested in history & myth & the familiar. baker's world is kinda its own thing even w/ the crusades stuff having that extended sequence was just really wtf.

fwiw one of my favorite thing about the wot was jordan's corny made-up swearing. so rad!

[Yellow]

Indeed.

[Illuyankas]

OK, seriously, I'm not fucking kidding, stop using shortcuts when you make posts. What the hell is w/r/t? with reference to? But you put 'w/r/t to' so it isn't that. It's a message board, there's no need to use so little letters, it doesn't charge you extra for longer posts. That's all I want. I can live with the lack of capitals or punctuation but for the love of fuck just be coherent. At this point I don't know if your member title is a resigned observation or a mission statement.

[Terez]

I forced myself to read that post. I agree with most of it, but yeah, I'm thinking his handle is a mission statement, with pure laziness at its root.

Translated to English:

englaisy said:

With reference to the ending of WoT, it's hard to say what is less "clichéd": to have the hero die a tragic death, or to have him live triumphant. The "subversion" of the traditional heroic narrative is already old hat, itself. The only thing you can ask, as a critic/reader/human, is that story is well-told and the ending earned, that it's consonant with the work as a whole, that it's affecting, that it's fully-realized. The Bakker comparison is kind of interesting to me, because I thought the LotR stuff in The Judging Eye was really dumb, but I thought that with Jordan, it was okay. Partly, I guess, because with Jordan, there are all these deliberate echoes of Arthurian legend and Celtic myth and world history already, so the homage/rip-off makes sense in context. It fits better in a novel that is concerned/interested in history & myth & the familiar. Bakker's world is kinda its own thing. Even with the crusades stuff, having that extended sequence was just really wtf.

For what it's worth, one of my favorite things about WoT was Jordan's corny made-up swearing. So rad!

ahhhh...much better.

[Yellow]

I just assumed it was troll bait.

[Aptorian]

Now, now children. No reason to get so antagonistic.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Terez, on 25 March 2010 - 09:19 PM, said:

I still have hopes that he will remain dead at the end of the series, but I am leaning more toward Nynaeve ripping him out. That's probably the most likely scenario. He's definitely going to die, though.

If I believed your theory that RJ subverts cliches instead of wallowing in them, I might buy this. As is though, I think Rand is going to make it because that is what happens in epic farmboy fantasy.

@eng lng rip: We saw your username, we get it. Now would you kindly drop the textspeak? I think you're going to find a lot of people just blocking you so we don't have to see your posts. It's a shame, because you have some good thoughts, but i can't be bothered to wade through the paragraph of adolescent text slang to get to it. I assume your computer has a full qwerty keyboard, please us it.

Don't forget, we have to uphold our reputation as a snobby elitist forum, so we're going to insist on actual English if you expect to be taken seriously.

This post has been edited by Raymond Luxury Yacht: 26 March 2010 - 03:55 PM

[Terez]

It's not really a theory Ray.

[Werthead]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 25 March 2010 - 06:17 PM, said:

But we all know that's not going to happen. At the end of the series he will be alive, sane, and the world will be saved.

True, but in most 'callow youth of apparently humble birth' fantasies the farmboy/servant suffers some personal losses but generally wins through (like Simon in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, or Pug in Magician). Rand's already been through many more problems than those guys and caused vastly more deaths, including innocents and children (most notably in the most recent book). It's not like he's gone Paul Atreides and unleashed the Fremen Aiel to genocidally jihad the ass off the continent, but Rand has already commited massive mistakes along the way. That, at least, is a minor subversion.

[Chiggerflea]

I'll answer this post in terms of their approaches to female characters.

Martin - There is the veneer of having conventional female stereotypes in feudal roles (princesses, queens, ladies, maids) and there are also stand-out exceptions (Arya, Brienne). Such women are some of the focal points in the narrative. In general, even chafing under a patriarchal system, many women are quite plucky and as underhanded as the men.

Erikson - Gender stereotypes are thrown out the door. Women in the military are as common and as varied as men. Female characters are in positions of power as much as male ones, and run the gamut from mysterious (a conventionally feminine trait) to overt in personality. Gender is almost incidental and irrelevant to any kind of plot details.

Jordan - Women generally cross their arms under their breasts and sniff at the men. *Sniff!*


As much as most people believe the WOT pales in comparison to Erikson, Jordan was my introduction to the fantasy genre as a teenager. Erikson is no doubt prohibitively too sophisticated for some people, so it's all about market and audience.

[McLovin]

I stopped reading Erikson at TTH. I just no longer care what happens.

Same with RJ. Dropped him at Winter's Heart (I think). Too many threads, too little forward movement. And the whole braid-tugging, skirt-smoothing stuff which just got cringe-inducing.

I'll probably see ASOIAF to the end, but then again, maybe not. Martin's a great writer (better than SE or RJ, IMO) but he may have outsmarted himself. That at least was SE's genius - keep the overall weave loose and you can write yourself out of any little corner.

[Illuyankas]

Two books from the end and you give up?

[McLovin]

Illuyankas, on 19 April 2010 - 06:01 PM, said:

Two books from the end and you give up?

Yep. Maybe sometime down the road I'll pick it back up. But TTH just left me cold.

[Illuyankas]

OK, I'm curious. Which parts?

[McLovin]

Illuyankas, on 19 April 2010 - 07:13 PM, said:

OK, I'm curious. Which parts?

I knew you were gonna ask. TBH, I don't remember. It's been a while since I read it. But maybe that tells you something right there. I can recall bits I liked from GOTM through RG. TTH, nothing.

[Illuyankas]

Even the ending? Blimey.

Still, I think it may improve on a reread whenver you can be bothered. And if not, DoD is a different experience, and by then TCG will be out.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 19 April 2010 - 07:47 PM

[McLovin]

Sorry. It's part of the reason I don't come around much anymore.

[Illuyankas]

It soured you on the Erikson experience enough to stop wanting to come here? (why am I repeating what you just said I sound like a retard)

It's not like there isn't a thread for criticising the series somewhere on the board, dissenting opinons are allowed etc.

[Terez]

And there's always the Inn and the DB! And all those other non-book places I don't go. Yeah.