[lobo the wolfman]

@Soulessdreamer, you might be thinking about the 'Just Wars' that the FA fought agiast the Tistse Liosan that Beak came up with out of the blue with in RG?

The one thing l don't get about the Jaghut's 'War on Death' was that they didn't believe in the fact that they had their own souls, so why would they fight so hard for the soul's of other races after death?

[QuinlanSilvanos]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 13 February 2010 - 01:02 AM, said:

H.D., on 11 February 2010 - 07:00 AM, said:

Some FA fought in the war, didn't they? Along with some Eleint, if I remember correctly.

I thought that originally too because I remembered a quote about FA fighting in some battle. I just found the quote, its later in TtH p. 592. Kallor is just reminiscing on his life and the battles he fought.

Quote

A battlefield spread out on all sides. Heaps of the dead and dying, human and beast, Jheck and Tartheno Toblakai, a scattering of Forkrul Assail each one surrounded by hundres of the fallen, the ones protecting their warleaders, the ones who failed in taking the demons down.

I think this quote is about another battle, not the Jaghut war against death.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

yea it is, I was just giving him the quote he was probably thinking of when he said FA fought in the Jaghut war.

[D'rek]

The whole "beating on their shields" bit and the appearance of some characters in DoD would lead one to believe that this was a pseudo-conventional war, with sword and shield, rather than a mass suicide. The only army I can think that they'd have had to fight against at the time (that we know of) would be KCCM, FA or Eleint, and it'd be none of those, so instead I think maybe it was chaos. Much how chaos had the army they fought in Dragnipur, the Jaghut could have fought Chaos the same way. If they were indeed fighting to create an afterlife then it makes a sort of sense - if the souls of the dead go to oblivion when they die, then that'd be going to chaos no? So they need to carve out a piece of chaos and create an after-life realm in the place where those souls are going into chaos.

And if they were indeed fighting chaos, then it explains why Verdith'anath (the Jaghut underworld) is empty - all the millions of dead Jaghut that lost in the war were taken into chaos and never made it to Verdith'anath, whether or not it existed at that point at all.

[MTS]

Makes sense. What about Jaghut who died after the war on death though? Wouldn't they be in Verdith'anath?

[D'rek]

MTS, on 16 February 2010 - 02:55 AM, said:

Makes sense. What about Jaghut who died after the war on death though? Wouldn't they be in Verdith'anath?

No idea. Could be that Verdith'anath is what they *hoped* to create but couldn't, so when Hood "won the war in the last moments" he created Hood's Realm instead and they go there, too.

On the other hand, the only Jaghut we know to have died is the one from DG who stuck around to haunt Corporal List. Ganath, Aramala, Gethol, Gothos, Raest, Cynnigig... you just can't keep (most) good Jaghut down.

[MTS]

D, on 16 February 2010 - 03:25 AM, said:

MTS, on 16 February 2010 - 02:55 AM, said:

Makes sense. What about Jaghut who died after the war on death though? Wouldn't they be in Verdith'anath?

No idea. Could be that Verdith'anath is what they *hoped* to create but couldn't, so when Hood "won the war in the last moments" he created Hood's Realm instead and they go there, too.

On the other hand, the only Jaghut we know to have died is the one from DG who stuck around to haunt Corporal List. Ganath, Aramala, Gethol, Gothos, Raest, Cynnigig... you just can't keep (most) good Jaghut down.

Could very well be. Would that be the betrayal alluded to by the 14 in DoD? Or did that have to do with the Chaining?

Not true. There are the Jaghut mother and father in the MoI prologue. We see the mother die, and we are told the children witnessed their father's death.

This post has been edited by MTS: 16 February 2010 - 03:32 AM

[D'rek]

MTS, on 16 February 2010 - 03:30 AM, said:

D, on 16 February 2010 - 03:25 AM, said:

MTS, on 16 February 2010 - 02:55 AM, said:

Makes sense. What about Jaghut who died after the war on death though? Wouldn't they be in Verdith'anath?

No idea. Could be that Verdith'anath is what they *hoped* to create but couldn't, so when Hood "won the war in the last moments" he created Hood's Realm instead and they go there, too.

On the other hand, the only Jaghut we know to have died is the one from DG who stuck around to haunt Corporal List. Ganath, Aramala, Gethol, Gothos, Raest, Cynnigig... you just can't keep (most) good Jaghut down.

Could very well be. Would that be the betrayal alluded to by the 14 in DoD? Or did that have to do with the Chaining?

Not true. There are the Jaghut mother and father in the MoI prologue. We see the mother die, and we are told the children witnessed their father's death.

Ah yes, that is correct, forgot about them.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

The war on chaos theory makes sense, but I know there's a line somewhere in the book (I'll look for it later) about imagining a war in which those that died merely changed sides. I don't think fallen Jaghut would have been turned into chaos manifestations. Perhaps, they went to war against the Jaghut death realm in an attempt to make it a final resting place for all sentient beings? Then when it became clear they could not win, Hood carved out a piece of it and made it a warren unto itself that would become the Hood's realm that we know about. I don't know though, because while by all accounts it was a magnanimous war, that doesn't seem to benefit the Jaghut at all, and I don't know how a hundred million would decide to basically sacrifice themselves for the betterment of other races that were probably barely established yet.

[QuinlanSilvanos]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 16 February 2010 - 05:08 AM, said:

The war on chaos theory makes sense, but I know there's a line somewhere in the book (I'll look for it later) about imagining a war in which those that died merely changed sides. I don't think fallen Jaghut would have been turned into chaos manifestations. Perhaps, they went to war against the Jaghut death realm in an attempt to make it a final resting place for all sentient beings? Then when it became clear they could not win, Hood carved out a piece of it and made it a warren unto itself that would become the Hood's realm that we know about. I don't know though, because while by all accounts it was a magnanimous war, that doesn't seem to benefit the Jaghut at all, and I don't know how a hundred million would decide to basically sacrifice themselves for the betterment of other races that were probably barely established yet.

This is what i don't understand, too. SE has described them in TTH as very noble, but to sacrifice their race for the benefit of other races...

Because they did sacrifice. After that war, Jaghut's society was destroyed, not to mention the 100 millions that died there.

[geNESis]

Don't forget the Elient that joined them as well, it wasn't just the Jaghut.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Some eleint joined them, not all. By all account we've heard of it it seemed to be a primarily Jaghut undertaking. And the fact that eleint hurts the theory that it was a magnanimous war as well. Because, seriously, what eleint have we seen so far that seemed to care about anyone else? Though to be fair, since it was Shorn talking about it, I guess it could have been soletaken.

[Sanctume]

Inside Dragnipur, there was a conversation between Draconus and Apsalara. Apsalara describe how the soul was being eaten by chaos, and that the memory / mind is slowly devoured / destroyed a little at a time, and that in time, the memory of existing does not mean anything to that individual--thus becoming part of oblivion. (my paraphrase).

So with that paraphrase, will that be enough for the Jaghut to fight for?

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Would what be enough? I don't really know what your post is saying. Could you explain it a little?

[Sanctume]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 24 February 2010 - 06:33 PM, said:

Would what be enough? I don't really know what your post is saying. Could you explain it a little?

If oblivion is like what Apsalara thinks--about how the soul is eaten/devoured by chaos, as in memories are stripped into pieces until the being no longer see / think / sense it's own value, experiences, and existence; so that even if the strong willed (Draconus was gathering around him) can fight and can last longer, but eventually lose over time.

If this notion of Apsalara is true and shared by the Jaghut, I think this is one possible "injustice" the Jaghut people reasoned to wage war against death. There were no humans at the time, but there were the mortal Imass. Perhaps the Jaghut cared or put value about the "soul" of those mortals.

Would that be enough reason for the Jaghut army to wage war against death? Because the soul seems defenseless and no longer had a choice after death, and chaos is free to devour them.

[Mock]

There seems to be a sense of justice about the whole thing. Hood exemplifies this, because a few times in the series, (even though everyone always says Hood doesn't care) he has shown mercy or special treatment to a character. For instance, when he meets Beak at the gates personally or when he heals the city guardsman in Daru...perhaps their war was an exercise in bringing honour to death?

[Timdgreat]

Has anyone considered that maybe the Jaghuts war was to bring about a sense of order in the realm of death? Maybe the injustice was that when a being died their soul was just wasted and just existed in the realm of death. However i still can not see any enemy that the Jaghut could have fought over this. The only army or enemy i can think that they might have fought would have been previously dead beings. Thus the quote about when they died they changed sides. If a jaghut died in the war they ended up on the other side fighting against their living brethren.

This question has been a major thorn in my mind ever since I read it. wish I had more of an idea about it. I hope SE graces us with an answer

[Jorram]

I dont think that he has any idea what exactly happened either

[gibbons]

I assumed the war would have been against whatever demons may have lived in the warren of death at the time, keeping them in line seems like a pretty just thing to do to me.
I think it was in house of chains, when the ex-priest of shadow is killed by karsa orlong and then when he turns up at hoods gates there are a group of demons that enjoy doing what he did to other people... if there were any more demons that acted like that and nobody to restrain them I can't imagine being dead would be very pleasant

[ShadowRaven]

Timdgreat, on 26 February 2010 - 01:18 AM, said:

However i still can not see any enemy that the Jaghut could have fought over this. The only army or enemy i can think that they might have fought would have been previously dead beings. Thus the quote about when they died they changed sides. If a jaghut died in the war they ended up on the other side fighting against their living brethren.

This question has been a major thorn in my mind ever since I read it. wish I had more of an idea about it. I hope SE graces us with an answer

I also saw it this way. However, the way I see it is that since Hood is pictured as a reluctant/neutral god of death, perhaps there was a god of death before him that wasn't reluctant and decided to take an active role. What if the previous god of death was actively seeking to kill beings and fill the realm of the dead instead of just waiting for them to die and end up in it? This would certainly be cause for worry and a reason to try to defeat death and replace him/her/it.