[The Seguleh 46th]

I agree that while OE is a force, she is obviously an entity now, being stuck in her TI Bonecaster/Soletaken form (could be wrong though). Not gonna get into the whole continuum/elemental/atomic debate here, as most of that went flying right over my head (you guys are smart!), but i just have to say that if she was such a huge force, then why can't she simply dismiss it all (meaning if she is everything then she can be nothing as well)? Checks and balances seem to be a large theme here, to me anyways, in everything that represents power. Too much it seems, and an Azath comes in to attempt to restore Order. Choas seems to be in constant battle with damn near everything. Death is universal (maybe taxes as well in the Wu world? hehe). Light needs Dark, and Shadow needs both. The sea is everywhere, bordering everything. Etc., etc., etc. They need each other, in other words. I think.....

Huh?! Not sure if i even made any sense here. Scratching my head right now. Oops.

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 30 July 2010 - 05:50 PM

[Excellence]

I like the fact Toc irritated her.

Only just started reading Dust of Dreams, but I like the fact he got on her.

[chaosek]

I think I know who the soletaken draconian Jaghut is. Actually it's a D'Ivers Jaghut....

It's Gothos. In DG near the end when Fiddler and crew are trying to get out of the Azath three ocherous dragons fly past. They aren't very big (or at least Crokus has seen bigger), but are flying in a V-formation. This is just after the part where the guardian thanks Mobi for releasing him from his duty (presumably this is Gothos). Fiddler notices that the dragons seem totally uninterested in them, as if they we're beneath him. The dragons dive through the tiles and disappears. In the deadhouse in Malaz, they meet Gothos who is wearing a ocherous robe.

Now I know this isn't conclusive, but knowing Erikson he hasn't put in those little hints (ocherous dragons - ocherous robe, Jaghut's being known for being uninterested and the tidbit in DoD) for nothing. So my conclusion, Gothos is the Soletaken (D'Ivers) Jaghut.

[Abyss]

chaosek, on 19 January 2011 - 12:06 PM, said:

I think I know who the soletaken draconian Jaghut is. Actually it's a D'Ivers Jaghut....

...three ocherous dragons ...Gothos who is wearing a ocherous robe. ...

Totally missed this. Rep sent. VERY interesting possibility there.


- Abyss, also didn't know 'ocherous' was a word...

[Grief]

The three dragons being D'Ivers certainly seems to be a possibility. We're told that soletaken dragons(and iirc regular eleint) are awful at tolerating each other, and those three don't seem interested in fighting.

On the other hand, we do only see them for a very brief period of time, when escaping. In that situation, they're unlikely to stop to fight amongst themslves. Even so, them flying together is odd. I'm pretty sure that it's noted in TTH that inside dragnipur all of the dragons fight alone.

Gothos is a character we've not seen much of, and who reamins pretty enigmatic. It's possible he's a D'Ivers, but I've not really seen much to suggest it-for one, what would the source be? He doens't seem the kind to be interested in gaining more power by drinking Tiams blood.

Silchas also says soletaken, and he seems likely to be pretty informed about that kind of thing. Do we actually know if eleint D'Ivers are possible yet?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Olar Ethil believed it impossible but thought Telorast and Curdle were one until they explained. So, it seems it's considered impossible to be a D'ivers Eleint

[Abyss]

Grief, on 19 January 2011 - 05:54 PM, said:

The three dragons being D'Ivers certainly seems to be a possibility. We're told that soletaken dragons(and iirc regular eleint) are awful at tolerating each other, and those three don't seem interested in fighting.

But that only goes so far. The draconic Andii in Moons Spawn seemed perfectly capable of working together in GotM and MoI and Korlat and Orfantal went hunting for Kallor together post MoI through TtH, so it's not quite an absolute rule. Even Silch and scabby worked together for a while, tho that ended badly.

Quote

...Do we actually know if eleint D'Ivers are possible yet?

Bauchelain the Evil, on 19 January 2011 - 06:03 PM, said:

Olar Ethil believed it impossible but thought Telorast and Curdle were one until they explained. So, it seems it's considered impossible to be a D'ivers Eleint

I suppose we don't know that it's IMpossible but we haven't seen it happen yet either.

Telorast and Curdle would seem to serve as an example that a lot of what we think we know may not be fixed in stone.... i mean, two Eleint souls bonded to a dead Andii body... that's outside ANYTHING we've seen.

Throw in Paran's Hound shift, Ryllandaras (both of him), Gruntle's Tiger Legion form and Dejim's whole 'seven souls one body seven shadows' thing and i think it's safe to say the hard and fast rules ain't so hard or so fast.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Also a minor quibble, but Icarium shows no signs ever of having draconic blood in him. Though he did apparently have some sort of relationship with the K'chain who worship dragons, so who knows?

[chaosek]

It's just speculation but after rereading those particular parts again I'm pretty much convinced. The fact that there is a guardian in Tremolor that leaves after Moby arrives, the dragons coming up behind Fiddler and co which ofc means that it has passed through the Azath's door (where other soultaken and d'ivers failed), the fact that it knows how to use the Azath, the fact the dragons seem to act as a flock of birds which as said is unusual for eleint (but to a lesser extent soletaken with an eleint form), the simularity in color, the possibilty that Jaghut are competent with Soletaken and D'ivers rituals, maybe thus negating the need for Tiam's blood, the possibility that the dragons and Fiddler went through the same tiles (but it happens off screen) and the mention of it in DoD, where ofc there is always the possibility that at that time there was only one dragon being Gohos, Heuk did multiply himself and Ryllandaras is a very strange case in itself which leaves open the possibility (Heuk as well) that D'ivers seperate 'parts' act independently, Sillias might not have known better (and there are more little mistakes across books).

But we'll never know for sure unless Erikson or ICE intends to tell us.

This post has been edited by chaosek: 19 January 2011 - 08:54 PM

[Blueiron]

chaosek, on 19 January 2011 - 12:06 PM, said:

I think I know who the soletaken draconian Jaghut is. Actually it's a D'Ivers Jaghut....

It's Gothos. In DG near the end when Fiddler and crew are trying to get out of the Azath three ocherous dragons fly past. They aren't very big (or at least Crokus has seen bigger), but are flying in a V-formation. This is just after the part where the guardian thanks Mobi for releasing him from his duty (presumably this is Gothos). Fiddler notices that the dragons seem totally uninterested in them, as if they we're beneath him. The dragons dive through the tiles and disappears. In the deadhouse in Malaz, they meet Gothos who is wearing a ocherous robe.

Now I know this isn't conclusive, but knowing Erikson he hasn't put in those little hints (ocherous dragons - ocherous robe, Jaghut's being known for being uninterested and the tidbit in DoD) for nothing. So my conclusion, Gothos is the Soletaken (D'Ivers) Jaghut.

I like the way you think. If the three of them flying in a V is enough basis to speculate that they are D'ivers (and based on what we know of eleint, ie, not working together all that well it is) then it would seem odd that there was a D'ivers already inside the Azath while almost every other high-power shapeshifter was still trying to get in at Tremorlor. Gothos would probably be up for defending the Azath (precedent: Icarium). The only argument against it thus far is one based on character (courtesy of grief) and although I agree that the Gothos we know doesn't seem like he would drink Tiam's blood for power, characters can change. Witness Paran. Witness Mr Witness himself, Karsa.

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 19 January 2011 - 08:27 PM, said:

Also a minor quibble, but Icarium shows no signs ever of having draconic blood in him. Though he did apparently have some sort of relationship with the K'chain who worship dragons, so who knows?

Maybe Gothos became a D'ivers after Icarium was born. Maybe, in fact, the threat of Icarium was what pushed him to become D'ivers. Do we have any idea of when Tiam was killed for the last time? in relative terms? Someone must have been the last...

Oh, also, rep for chaosec for ingenious thinking.

EDIT: On the matter of forces vs people-gods, this is succinct and intelligent:

amphibian, on 09 June 2010 - 03:52 AM, said:

The books seem to present an entire continuum of power - from elemental forces (Chaos, for example) to mere mortals. As of DoD, it is unclear where Olar Ethil is
on that continuum.

This post has been edited by Blueiron: 20 January 2011 - 12:34 AM

[JohnO]

my money is on there being some link between Tiam, OE and the KCCM conversation about balance in DoD. I think Sag Churok is talking to the destraint about the nature of magic. He says something about there being a need for balance and for every force there must be an equal & opposing force.

Therefore if OE is creation / motherhood, there must be a destruction force- so I'd guess the otataral dragon.
And since everything's linked, OE isnt undead because she feels sorry for the T'lan Imass, its cos the otataral dragon is nailed to a tree somewhere.
Once otty gets free, OE gets some power back so stops being undead.

There's possibly something in here about Tiam too. Since OE is undead & is linked to Tiam, Tiam cant regenerate until otty gets freed.


You can probably find other examples of this kind of link - MD turns away, so FL has to too.
CrippyG fragmented & in bits, KE fragmented & in bits


Just a though.
PS Sorry, I cant spell.

[Hetan]

OE is undead because she was the maker of the Ritual of Tellann and is less than she once was. The other Elders she meets are pretty clear about that.

Regarding Tiam - the only person we know who has killed Tiam is Anomander Rake and that took place before he came to this realm.

Telorast and Curdle were twins - not D'ivers. In the passage in the Bonehunters where we first meet them there were actually two Andii bodies and each spirit was tied to one body. I think there's either an editorial mistake in the bit where they talk to Olar Ethil in DoD, or they lied - and they're good at lying after all.

I like a lot of the other theories though - some of those could be a lot of fun.

[D'iversify]

Hetan, on 24 January 2011 - 08:50 PM, said:

Telorast and Curdle were twins - not D'ivers. In the passage in the Bonehunters where we first meet them there were actually two Andii bodies and each spirit was tied to one body. I think there's either an editorial mistake in the bit where they talk to Olar Ethil in DoD, or they lied - and they're good at lying after all.

It is admittedly hard to tell when they're sowing confusion and when they themselves are just confused.

[chaosek]

D, on 25 January 2011 - 10:13 AM, said:

Hetan, on 24 January 2011 - 08:50 PM, said:

Telorast and Curdle were twins - not D'ivers. In the passage in the Bonehunters where we first meet them there were actually two Andii bodies and each spirit was tied to one body. I think there's either an editorial mistake in the bit where they talk to Olar Ethil in DoD, or they lied - and they're good at lying after all.

It is admittedly hard to tell when they're sowing confusion and when they themselves are just confused.

I though they weren't bound to the Andii bodies Aspalar found them with. They we're just hovering above them. Or at least that is what I recall. The orignal Andii body could be long lost.

On OE, I always figured she is part of Tiam, with Tiam being a D'Ivers Eleint.

[Warren of Cheese]

I don't know if this has been covered elsewhere, but I haven't seen any mention in this thread, so I will add it. I have been reading the series through for the second time, and while reading Midnight Tides recently made a note of the quote below. This came when Udinaas and Feather Witch are in the pocket realm (I don't remember why) and meet Rud Elalle for the first time; one of the Imass is speaking, and leads to Rud translating.

My version is the US paperback, page 588 (emphasis mine):

"The boy shrugged. "T'iam, Kalse, Silannah, Ampelas, Okaros, Karosis, Sorrit, Atrahal, Eloth, Anthras, Kessobahn, Alkend, Karatallid, Korbas... Olar. Eleint. Draconean. Dragons. The Pure Dragons. The place where the road comes from is closed. By the mixed bloods who gathered long ago..."

How exactly to fit this into the discussion, I am not sure; I just wanted to interject it. Could be a coincidence and refers to someone else entirely, but that would be one dhenrabi of a coincidence... Could the "Ethil" be a suffix indicating undead-itis kind of like "T'lan"? Something else?

[MTS]

IIRC the first names of the T'lan Imass Bonecasters represent their Soletaken forms. So having Olar as her first name means her Soletaken form is a dragon. Tenag Ilbaie presumably turns into a tenag, which is a kind of deer/antelope I think. Ay Estos obviously veers into an ay. So a monok (Monok Ochem) would be a big-ass bear and a pran (Pran Chole) would be an arctic fox.

This post has been edited by MTS: 26 January 2011 - 11:40 PM

[Warren of Cheese]

MTS, on 26 January 2011 - 11:40 PM, said:

IIRC the first names of the T'lan Imass Bonecasters represent their Soletaken forms. So having Olar as her first name means her Soletaken form is a dragon. Tenag Ilbaie presumably turns into a tenag, which is a kind of deer/antelope I think. Ay Estos obviously veers into an ay. So a monok (Monok Ochem) would be a big-ass bear and a pran (Pran Chole) would be an arctic fox.

Ah, thank you, I had forgotten about that. Never mind, carry on.

[Sinisdar Toste]

except monok ochem's soletaken form is a gorilla, is it not? he is the bonecaster that defends the first throne right?

if this stands up, monok would be gorilla

/nitpick

[Illuyankas]

Don't the two Bonecasters who shift into bears and kill Sukul Whatsherface have different first names?

[MTS]

Gorilla, bear, they're both big big and hairy.

I had him confused with the Bonecasters who kill Sukul Ankhadu in RG.