[Matrim]

Hetan said:

Does anyone else get the idea that certain areas/plot lines were sortta... rushed? As if he couldn't be a$$ed to write them properly and just did it for the sake of a tidyup?

Err, is there anyone who did not get this idea?

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@Het[cough] I'd like Mat to meet up with Cadsuane. Then she might get her ass spanked. We'd all like that.

Agreed.

The book was mediocre. I really liked the chapters with Mat and Tuon while the other stuff was mostly boring and predictable. A lot of battles but none of them too memorable.

[Ijon Tichy]

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The biggest let-down for me was the "event that was going to be seen to have dire consequences" or something that RJ mentioned in an interview. That we would all be shocked......I was waiting for some really big wow moment...and when I found out what it was, I was like.... huh?

Absolutely, that so-called by RJ gasp moment was so poorly done and not moving at all. I never realised that was supposed to be a big event until I read it at a WoT board after I've finished the book.

If Jordan thinks that's supposed to be emotionally moving and depressing for the readers, he really needs to read "Memories of ice" or any other of the MBotF books to see how such things are done properly.

[Dolmen 2.0]

I gotta say the series could really have rocked. I got into the characters but then he kind of went off track. da whole teleporting ogier thing got me 2.

[werewolfv2]

ahhh..

so in short the new book is better than the last book, but still isnt nearly as good as the 1st five or so?

that sucks, oh well I will wait and buy a used paperback copy. Im not gonna waste $$ on rushing out and buying the hardcover like I did last time.

[pat5150]

For my money, KNIFE OF DREAMS is the best WoT book since LORD OF CHAOS. Now, let's see how RJ closes the show!

Patrick
www.fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com

[dktorode]

wont buy hardcover but thats cause all the other's are paperack
dont want to ruin the collection!
so how many books are there gonna be anyway it was meant originaly to be a trilogy!
well 9 books L8er isnt too bad if he's really telling the truth and there is only going to be 12 does anybody have any conformation?
cause i thought no 10 was gonna be the last one and almost burnt all the books when it wasn't

[Agraba]

1 - The Shadow Rising
2 - The Great Hunt
3 - The Dragon Reborn
4 - The Fires of Heaven
5 - The Eye of the World
6 - The Path of Daggers
7 - A Knife of Dreams
8 - A Crown of Swords
9 - Winter's Heart
10 - Lord of Chaos
11 - Crossroads of Twilight

(Psst, reading the following post is assuming you read Wheel of Time up to Book 11, so don't cry to me if you saw spoilers).

To say right out, the early part of this series was amazing. When you finish Crossroads of Twilight, you're so soured to the series that you just forget how gripping it was earlier on. The Shadow Rising was quite brilliantly done. It had moments like Rand trying to revive the girl (very touching), the crystal columns (my single favorite part of the series), both the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, etc etc... I dare say, it almost reaches up there with Deadhouse Gates (but not quite with Memories of Ice or Midnight Tides). I just pure loved it, that's all I can say. The Great Hunt was also fantastic. It had my single favorite climax of the series, with the blowing of the horn, and the salvation of Ingtar. Second moment right before the crystal columns. It diverted from the path Eye of the World seemed to take, which Jordan outright admitted was similarly structured to Lord of the Rings, and showed that the series was going somewhere completely different. The Dragon Reborn was pure excitement, with Mat kicking serious ass with his quarterstaff, and blowing a hole in the roof to sneak in and beat up guards, and Perrin's power really starting to get exciting, etc... The Fires of Heaven had Mat's single greatest moment of the series, with being the general of the battle at Cairhien. Even Eye of the World had great parts, and also my second favorite climax of the series (the part at the Eye itself).

Then, after #5, things start to go to hell. Book 6 was only liked because of that climax (which was a bit rushed in my opinion) and the Black Tower, but other than that, it had nothing. Robert Jordan went way too much into details, when in that one book, he could have followed through with the events of the next three. Things looked slightly up at Path of Daggers; there seemed hope, with exciting moments like the Asha'man going renegade, and the campaign against the Seanchan, but then things went to hell again. I was so anticipating Knife of Dreams that after reading House of Chains, I took a break from the Malazan series to pick up KoD from the stores on October 11, and boy was that a mistake. To hold off Midnight Tides for.... that. Well, think of how I felt, deviating from the series at a point like House of Chains to go back to Jordan's new garbage. I seriously don't know what went wrong with him; all the things that happened in KoD could've happened in books 7 or 8. Not only that, but none of the events in #11 were emotionally riveting as I would expect in the Shadow Rising, or any Malazan book. They were just... mechanical. And the whole thing with Semirhage (which was being set up since Book 4 by the way, for those observant people) just happened way too fast, and was anti-climatic.

And the worst thing is, RJ refuses to make team Light suffer any losses. Sure, there are losses of troops, war funds that lead to poverties of some sorts, but he doesn't want to take anything from the reader, know what I mean? No characters we love die, nothing like that. So Rand lost a hand. Boo-hoo. I thought he was going to get in serious trouble. I thought they'd actually collar him, and send him to Shayol Ghul. Maybe turn him evil, and make his comrades face him. That would be a big mark for Wheel of Time. I thought that in Perrin's battle, he'd be backstabbed by darkhounds, or Masema's men would turn renegade, or something. But everything went through perfectly! The only major losses were Masema's men, whom RJ made us hate anyways! And you'd think that some trouble might come from Rolan, but no, he just gets wiped off after helping our friend Faile.

And you'd think that the Black Ajah have a better plan of action to take Elayne to Shayol Ghul than by cart. And you'd think we'd have serious trouble from Arymilla's troops, but it turns out that Elayne's army didn't break a sweat. If RJ won't let anything bad happened anywhere else, at least let it happen here. Let Elayne be taken to Shayol Ghul, and Arymilla (or Elenia) take the seat.

A step up from Crossroads of Twilight, but that's not saying much. RJ has been planning for this amazing climax in his head since before starting the Eye of the World, over a decade ago. I expect something earth-shattering in A Memory of Light (the unofficial name of book 12). At least as good as The Great Hunt, but hopefully something at Shadow Rising level, or higher.

Oh yes, and Cadsuane is the only Aes Sedai who actually is wise, unlike the others who are supposed to be, but are 8 year old children. She's the only Aes Sedai (other than Moiraine and Verin) who actually realizes that the Dragon Reborn is actually more important than the childish dispute over at the White Tower, and that it's not world-breakingly important if the White Tower stands or not. She doesn't submit to stupid Aes Sedai customs like the other. And lastly, she knows what she's talking about. She seems tough and harsh, but she's completely cool-headed. Rand needs to submit to her, and make her tell him exactly what to do.

[Thelomen Toblakai]

I'll probably be thrown out for saying this. I LOVE the Wheel of Time. And i read it before i read the Malazan Book of the Fallen books. But they are amazing. However both series are good in different ways. The Wheel of Time is great but it doesn't have the same uniqueness that these books do. But definetly worth reading.

[Thelomen Toblakai]

By the way was anyone else dissapointed (spoiler) in book 11 when semherige was caught so easily. I was really dissapointed.

[Cause]

by Agraba- Oh yes, and Cadsuane is the only Aes Sedai who actually is wise, unlike the others who are supposed to be, but are 8 year old children. She's the only Aes Sedai (other than Moiraine and Verin) who actually realizes that the Dragon Reborn is actually more important than the childish dispute over at the White Tower, and that it's not world-breakingly important if the White Tower stands or not. She doesn't submit to stupid Aes Sedai customs like the other. And lastly, she knows what she's talking about. She seems tough and harsh, but she's completely cool-headed. Rand needs to submit to her, and make her tell him exactly what to do.

Please tell me your joking. I hate cadsuane. And dont you see something wrong in the main character submiting.

[Tes'thesula]

ye gods, i had trouble getting through eye of the world, i can't imagine going through the entirity of ten more books. he is just a bad writer...

then again, i did read EOTW after reading all the MBotF books, everything pales in comparison i guess

[Agraba]

mjgill, Eye of the World is a bit of a downpoint, especially the beginning, but Books 2, 3, and 4 are absolutely fantastic. Everything goes to hell at 6 and up, but I say that The Shadow Rising (book 4) actually compares with some of the Malazan Books, and is definately better than Gardens of the Moon (my least favorite MBotF).

So Cause, what don't you like about Cadsuane? I hear a lot of "I hate Cadsuane" but never a good argument to back that up. Rand has been getting better ever since she came forth as his advisor.

[Dave]

Agraba, your list perplexes me somewhat. I'd rank them like this (I'm sure we'd all have differences in ranking, but I just want to post mine for contrast):

1- Lord of Chaos. Yup; more on this below.
2- The Shadow Rising
3 - The Great Hunt
4 - The Fires of Heaven
5 - Dragon Reborn
6 - Crown of Swords
7 - Knife of Dreams
8 -Winter's Heart
9 -The Path of Daggers
10 -Eye of the World
11 - Crossroads of Twilight

Quite a few differences from your list. For the first 5 books, I never found much of a surprise in the endings. EOTW - Rand was always going to be the Dragon Reborn. Great Hunt - he'd battle with Baal'zamon, get the horn back, Egwene would be freed, etc. Dragon Reborn had the most obvious ending of all thus far, Shadow Rising - showdown with Asmo and capturing him (forshadowed by plenty of prophecy), Fires of Heaven - showdown with at least one of the Forsaken group trying to get him to attack Sammael was inevitable; it was never going to be Sammael (yes, the Lanfear thing WAS a surprise, although Moiraine's impending 'demise' was obvious) but Lord of Chaos....I thought it was heading towards Illian and Sammael...ho hum...and bam, Rand gets taken. I really hadn't been expecting that...and then Dumai's Wells was awesome. The Aes Sedai knelt. So cool.

But plenty of other things make LOC really good, IMO. Nynaeve heals gentling, which was a great scene. Forsaken resurrected, Shadar Haran makes his first appearance, Demandred, Sammael and Graendal get 'screen time' (I love seeing the Forsaken's planning and plotting, and LOC had quite a bit), the farm is established and Taim is put in charge of it and Rand generally isn't too idiotic, actually making plans and developing them. Sure, it's not 100% pure action - I often find the Salidar chapters pretty slow, and could do without the whole Egwene/Gawyn thing - but it was the highlight of the series for me, so far.

EOTW was very average. I had no interest in continuing after finishing it, and didn't read The Great Hunt until I came across it in the library when I was stuck for something to read, some 8 months after I'd read EOTW. This was vastly different to what I'd expected after EOTW, although by the 3/4 mark I thought I knew where it was likely to be heading, and wasn't too far wrong. Dragon Reborn I found rather tedious until the end. The end was great, the rest? blah. Yes, the Shadow Rising was just amazing, and a very, very close second, IMO. Unfortunately, Faile just gets to me so badly it interferes with much of my enjoyment of Perrin's chapters, so it's not first on my list. I like being surprised - so the crystal columns was fantastic, but the climax of the novel? ho hum. TFOH was good, but had too much travelling in menageries with Nynaeve and Elayne for my tastes. The docks was a nice surprise, insofar as Lanfear seemed to have been taken out, and I wasn't expecting Asmo to go so quickly either. It was after LOC, IMO, that the series began its decline.

It was the fact you ranked LOC as second-last that mostly inspired this post. For the life of me I can't understand that, so I'm just going to chalk it up to human diversity. I cannot comprehend how you enjoyed EOTW as much as to rank it so high.

The idea that Rand, as the most powerful ta'veren in 3000 years (at least) should do what anyone tells him is ridiculous, really. Even Moiraine knew he needed a large degree of freedom for things to turn out right. Cadsuane is so annoying it almost defies reason - I thought Faile was the most annoying character possible until Cadsuane happened along.

If you ever thought for a second that any of the three ta'veren would die before the end, then we must be reading different books. Sure, Rand will die at TG, but he'll be resurrected; but there have been numerous other hints that without both Mat and Perrin, Rand will lose at TG.

I enjoyed TWOT enormously until bk 6, and then felt it had a gradual decline from ACOS to TPOD, picked up a tiny bit in WH, and then sunk to depths I wouldn't have believed possible with COT. KOD was something of a return to form, but some things certainly seemed rushed, but not so badly as, for instance, the discovery of how to make cuen'dillar, which was just something that Egwene had suddenly worked out in whatever book it was.

RJ is writing a series, it seems to me, for as broad an audience as possible, so traumatic deaths of major characters which haven't been telegraphed since the first novel - and which aren't going to be resolved by resurrection - just aren't going to happen, IMO. It'd scare the kiddies.

[Agraba]

Well baphomet, your list is very similar to mine, and the only major deviations are Lord of Chaos and Eye of the World. Now, with Lord of Chaos, most of the things you mentioned are plot advancements that don't exactly put you on the edge and get into the moment, but scratch your chin and say "I wonder what will come of this". It's Jordan's devious side, and nothing's wrong with thought-provoking cliffhangers like that, but there was a lot of that in the book. That's the one thing that Crossroads was full of, which just made it a crap book. And so what if Nynaeve healed the unhealable and Egwene became Amyrlin? Those were progressions for team light, sure enough, but not things that made me fascinated in the scene. The only upside to this is that something as unexpected as Rand getting captured happened, and the fact that he's taken out of trouble a hundred pages later just disappoints you a bit. Not that I don't like Rand, just that I was looking forward to seeing the turn of events once he actually arrives in the White Tower, in the hands of the Dark One.

I liked the Eye of the World. Rand is the Dragon Reborn; I actually didn't see that coming. And why the hell would anybody? If you ask me, I think that everyone who says they saw it coming really didn't, and are just saying that they did. The whole Eye of the World convinces us that the Dragon Reborn is completely evil, and his arrival will be the doomsday of Earth. Hell, most of the people we meet think that the Dragon will be the Dark One's ultimate servant. So how are we supposed to see that Rand will be the Dragon Reborn?

You saw coming that the horn was going to be retrieved, but did you see coming that Ingtar was a darkfriend?

The big downside to this series is Jordan's lack of putting our friends in real trouble. And yes, I did read books 1-11, and yes, after reading 1-10 I still expected Rand to become captured in #11, for two big reasons. One is that his capture was set up since the forth book. We saw Suroth already planning for this, and the male collar already being dealt with. There was just too much suspense in the cliffhanger for Jordan to just make everything okay in ten seconds. That was honestly very, very weak Mr. Jordan. The second reason was that Knife of Dreams was the second last book; the one right before the climax. This is where everything is supposed to go awry. This is the book where many people die or get captured/lost, and we get a state of hopelessness. How exciting will it be to go into the finale, knowing that team light is way ahead, and they're supposed to win? If Jordan plans to make a pre-climax downslope now, it will be way too rushed, and I don't think he'll even do it. I think everything will just go smoothly. It's for this latter reason that I thought a lot of things would go horribly in Knife of Dreams; that it'd be a real tragety. After the Fires of Heaven, I really just don't feel anymore, when reading Jordan's series.

[QuickTidal]

Let's be real, Jordan wants to be Tolkien, but he'll NEVER succeed, and the WOT is an AWFUL series. I can't stand it.