[Cause]

let it be so.

Personally I think it will be an improvement if rand has more than just 20 pages of face time. How on earth could he publish a book in which the main character made no appaearance?

[gyrehead]

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"WoT better than MBOTF? On what grounds? WoT is clearly, undeniably derivative, poorly written and it's been dragged out to make money. Even if it was a trilogy, it wouldn't come close. Jordan has little skill at worldbuilding (the map in the front has striking similarities to Middle Earth, just he doesn't have the detail of Erikson or Tolkien, at least that which matters) and he can't write well. He's overdescriptive with a very limited vocabulary, he has no idea of pacing and he is very predictable. Erikson is pretty much the opposite, and while he isn't the best writer in terms of quality of language (that obviously goes to Mervyn Peake/Italo Calvino), he's not a bad writer, unlike Jordan. Jordan has no power to move me, because he has come to the syndrome of invincible characters, while Erikson does so at almost the end of every book.

Are you really that insecure about others forming their own opinion? That has to be one the silliest, shrillest most bitter little hissy fits over some differing in opinion. No much vitriol you try to drench Jordan and WoT in, try to take a deep breath, change your wet chafing drawers and get this through your head. Its my opinion. And no matter how much righteous indignation you try to apply it is not a matter of right or wrong, let alone a matter in which you decide what is right or wrong for me. Get a grip already. And learn some manners while you are at it? Because this:

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"What rubbish are you talking about Bakker? The Prince of Nothing series is a trilogy, the first two are out and the third is coming out in early 2006, if not before, as has been said by him and his publishers!"

Is a type of juvenile posturing only either makes you incredibly rude and arrogant or an outright fool. Maybe both? This "rubbish" as you call it is what those of us others (including the author) call the second series of the overall sequence of which "The Prince of Nothing" has commenced. This "rubbish" you decry is anywhere from three to six more books continuing what the first three have started. In fact part of this "rubbish" even has a name; "The Aspect-Emperor". Currently a duology but almost as likely to go to a trilogy by Scott's own admission. The last part of the sequence ideally one book but once again Scott admits to possibly going to three. No working title for the last sequence as Scott says what he has in mind is a spoiler for the books between. Amazing what kind of "rubbish" you can dig up. But then I don't think term rubbish had anything to do with Mr. Bakker or his work. Grow up.

[Brys]

Sorry, but I think we can consider a trilogy as completed, which is more than can be said for Jordan's Wheel of Time. It will almost certainly be able to stand alone, in the same way that Mieville's New Crobuzon books can, Bakker's trilogies will be able to. It is not a multipart novel, or even a series. I don't see why the actual number of books seems so important. This means that no matter how bad his books after the Thousandfold Thought are, he can at least say that he has an excellent completed series, in the same way Feist can for his Riftwar saga (though the latter isn't quite of the same quality). Jordan's Wheel of Time however has to be judged upon all it's novels because they won't have a conclusion until the end. If the Wheel of Time was a sequence of trilogies or short series, such as Feist's Midkemia novels are, then it would be probably regarded better, as people could say that he had an excellent series.

I wasn't trying to be rude, but what you said seemed to be a direct contradiction of the facts. I wasn't trying to deny that Bakker wasn't going to write more after the Thousandfold Thought, only that he would have completed series. I apologise for my ignorance about the other series and saying that what you said about Bakker was rubbish. I misinterpreted you - I thought you meant that he wouldn't have a completed series for another 10-15 years. It seems we both misinterpreted each other, so I'll forgive your equally childish, rude and hypocritical comments. Also, why have we moved from discussing the Wheel of Time and Robert Jordan to personal attacks?

I have nothing against you forming your own opinion. I was merely stating my own opinion, as should be clear from the fact that it was in my post. If I was trying to say everything as pure fact, I'd make that very clear. I'm not saying I think my opinion is right, I was just wondering why you preferred the Wheel of Time to the Malazan series. Do I have to write "in my opinion" at the end of every sentence to convey that? It seems no one else has to. When I said cleary, undeniably derivative - I didn't mean to apply it to the rest, and I didn't mean consistently. My second paragraph was purely in terms of quality of writing. I think it's hard to deny that China Mieville is better at writing than David Eddings - it doesn't mean overall his books are, but his actual writing is. This is pretty much the same for Erikson v Jordan, except the difference between the two is much, much smaller. Are you saying that now, I cannot defend why I think Erikson is superior, yet you are allowed to defend Jordan? As I said, I have nothing against you preferring WoT to the Malazan series. I merely stated why I disagreed with that point of view, and asked you to elaborate upon why you did. If you look closely, I said nothing about you, or your opinion, just what I thought was wrong with the Wheel of Time. Is it more acceptable just to say, I hate the Wheel of Time, than to provide reasons? It's what you suggest.

[caladanbrood]

Calm down a bit guys:)

On a positive point, apparently what has been seen of Knife of Dreams so far has been excelent, more of the quality of Jordan's earlier books :cool:

[RodeoRanch]

Pumpkin has rocked my world. :drunk:

[ChrisW]

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And as a series, WoT still stands head and shoulders for me over MBotF

See and you all thought I was insane! I'm not alone yah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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And everything I have read of book 11 already makes it the best book of the year.

I guess your not basing that on the Dragonmount review .

[Brys]

ChrisW said:

See and you all thought I was insane! I'm not alone yah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess your not basing that on the Dragonmount review .

This isn't just another account you're using is it?
But you already knew you weren't alone - there are others on other forums who think the same.

[ChrisW]

Yeah but not here:).

Brys for someone who thinks WoT is pretty trashy you spend way to much time discussing it.

[RodeoRanch]

I still can't believe Rand hasn't tapped all 3 of his harem, AT THE SAME TIME! Weak pie there, weak pie.

[pachyderm]

WoT is great for it's derivatives of mythology and other stories. It definitely took genius to weave all of those ideas together. Every reread wields another parallel to some myth. The physics of magic are the best interpretation I've seen in fantasy. The politics as well, although it can often be overdone IMO. The thing I like most is that everything can be picked apart and debated with logic since RJ makes relatively few mistakes for how big his series is.
That said, there are the few things I dislike very much about it. So much so that I no longer buy the hardcover books, but wait for the paperbacks. Those are: his inability/disregard to condense and pace his writing in the last books. The lack of progress and length in the last books. I've never liked his stereotypes of women and men. What he sees as strong women, I see as weak and closed minded female dogs. Same for the men (although I guess they'd be donkeys). And although I know it's only partly his fault for the lack of wordcount, I really hate the large font of the last books.
I will definitely continue reading, because overall I really like the series for its complexity and storytelling (the overdescriptions only got to me in the last book since not much happened in it).

[Arithon]

I'm udecided about WoT at the moment. I felt the first six books were very good, but since then it feels as tho RJ has just been using the series as a meal ticket. I still read the books, I just try to get them from my local library instead of buying them the instant they come out.

[Roland]

I like the setting, also the overall plot. But the books from 6 up are plain garbage. The last Three could easily have been one (and not bigger than the rest, mind you). I expect a lot from the next one... That is, if Jordan wants to keep at least part of his thinning fandom...

[Roland]

That's a first

[Skinner]

RodeoRanch said:

I still can't believe Rand hasn't tapped all 3 of his harem, AT THE SAME TIME! Weak pie there, weak pie.

That will probably be saved for the climax...........

[Skinner]

Pretty much, yeah. It's turned into a long soap opera where the characters resort to talking to themselves, world facts and minor plotlines are endlessly repeated throughout the book. All to fill in the word count and make up the pages numbers.

And like a TV soap opera, by the end of the episode, very little advancement of the overal story has actually happened. But after you get used to the characters through books 1 -6, you keep turning those pages waiting for something to happen..........but no.

Still, alot of people out there seem happy to tune in again.......... not me though. Doesn't take much to see what's that RJ's doing.

[azidhak]

Knife of Dreams was the best since Lord of Chaos. It was also the first since that book to see an editor. Might be a connection there hmm? At least it makes it somewhat more believable that he'll wrap it up in a couple of books. It's not great or anything, but what charm this series had is returning, slowly but returning.