[Agraba]

So there seemed to be some major revelations in the scene where Saddic walked the underground of the city. Apparently Icarium had a dream where green people and slightly greener people could live together in harmony in this peaceful city where nobody carried weapons and water was pouring everywhere. We've only ever heard of the K'Chain and Jaghut warring against each other earlier in the series. Could it be that in this coexisting city they taught each other of the sciences and creating highly advanced technology? We thought the K'Chain were the only ones who ever advanced past renaissance technology until Icarium showed us knowledge building giant machines. And then Gothos explained evolution in great detail in TtH showing that there was a lot of scientific research among the Jaghut.

Also, I think, from Saddic's POV, the whole city was also one giant memory machine, maybe like the one in Lether? I'm guessing its functionality is what allowed him to see visions of their society in the city walls.

Have we ever had any indication of something like this earlier in the series? If not, this was like some major historic revelation. Also what do you think destroyed the city, which was Saddic's final visions which were intentionally vague.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I wouldn't put it past Icarium. We've never seen him interact with any KCCM or other Jaghut. But that would mean they forgot who taught them advanced technologies, wouldn't it?

Maybe the city had a civil war-maybe that's what kicked off these wars. Then again, maybe the FA had a hand in it...

[Urizen]

There is nothing conclusive to prove the Jaghut and the KCCM ever warred with eachother. Going by the thoughts of Sag'Churok in DoD there were hardly any interaction between the KCCM and the Jaghut.
A rather vague statment that the KCCM were to the Jaghut as they(the Jaghut) were to the Imass doesn't prove anything, especially since the Jaghut as a people didn't give a damn about the Imass, one way or the other.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Urizen, on 04 January 2010 - 10:32 AM, said:

There is nothing conclusive to prove the Jaghut and the KCCM ever warred with eachother. Going by the thoughts of Sag'Churok in DoD there were hardly any interaction between the KCCM and the Jaghut.
A rather vague statment that the KCCM were to the Jaghut as they(the Jaghut) were to the Imass doesn't prove anything, especially since the Jaghut as a people didn't give a damn about the Imass, one way or the other.

Didn't the undead dragon in TtH say that the Jaghut were to the KCCM as the Imass were to the Jaghut?

[blackzoid]

No, it was Silverfox in MoI who stated that the Jaghut were to the KCCM as the Imass were to the Jaghut.

The Undead Dragon mentioned the Jaghut war against death, the ONLY war they ever fought (aside from the war against the T'lan Imass, which the dragon described as being of a defensive nature only). The dragon didn't mention any KCCM/Jaghut conflict.

I think Silverfox has it wrong. Not surprising considering her thrown together nature, that she might get a few facts incorrect.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

errr, if the Jaghut were to the K'Chain what the Imass were to the Jaghut, barring the Tyrants of course, it could be that the K'Chain mostly ignored the Jaghut

Something else to consider is the first city on the site of Letheras was almost certainly K'Chain (from Janath's 'lecture' on the subject while beiing held prisoner) and the last modification to that city was a frantic effort to add insulation and there was a passage somewhere about the K'Chain saying somethign to the effect that 'ice spoke to them with words of death'. I'll look for the quote.

edit: it was Pran Chole in GotM-

And the K’chain Che’Malle are no more – the ice spoke to them with words of death.’

also, one of the undead Jaghut in DoD says (referring to the weapons of the Nah'ruk) that the Kep'rah never amounted to much of a threat against Omtose Phellack so it looks to me like the K'Chain were scared shitless of the Jaghut and the Jaghut just rarely bothered to take an interest in the K'Chain. Makes sense on a couple of levels, reptilians would be vulnerable to cold and the Jaghut by that time had abandoned civilization and just wanted to be left alone.

This post has been edited by Bre'nigan: 04 January 2010 - 01:07 PM

[MTS]

Ok, so these are the quotes that have been referenced.

It wasn't enough to build a place in which to live, a place with the comforting crowds of one's own kind. It wasn't even enough to fashion things of beauty out of mundane necessity - the pretty fountains, the perfect orchards with their perfect rows of ancient trees, the rooms of startling light as the sun's glow was trapped and given new flavours, the tall statues of tusked demons with their stern yet resolved expressions and the magical way the sun made vertical pupils in those glittering eyes - as if the statues watched still, alive inside the precise angles of translucent stone. None of these were sufficient reason for building this city. The revelation of the true secret was down here, locked away and destined to survive until oblivion itself came to devour the sun.
Above on the surface, the buildings, the domes and spires and tilted towers; the rooms and the plazas and spiral staircases: they each marked the perfect placement of a single, enormous machine. A machine of light and colours. But not just light, not just colours.
...
And, as he drew closer to what he knew was the centre of the city, to its most cherished heart, he now saw other creatures. In what seemed peaceful co-existence, huge two-legged reptiles began appearing in scenes.
These were the ones Badalle had spoken about. The ones who had found the city, but Saddic now knew more than she did. They'd found it, yes, but it had not been empty. In finding it, they found the ones who dwelt in it, who called it their home.
They were called Jaghut. Returned to this way of living, in the cities they had abandoned long before. They were drawn to a humble man, a half-blood. They were drawn to his great machine of memories, this place he made by his own hand. What be did not possess within him, he built around him. To trap all that he was.
The city is called Icarias.
He left a cavern, walked down a twisting passage murky with dark hues, and came upon the buried heart of the city.
Saddic cried out.
Before him, in a chamber more massive than any of the others . . . Darkness. Destruction. The roots were dead, unfed by light from above. Fissures split the crystals.
Broken. His heart is broken.

So Icarium built Icarias to preserve his memories. Methinks this is what he has been looking for all this time, the key to his understanding. Coming here would give him back a lot of his memories. Jaghut lived with him, drawn to him and his machine. All was peaceful, typical of Jaghut. Then the K'Chain found it, and co-existed with them. I don't think it went so well. Their appearance as co-existing with the Jaghut very close to the heart is telling, I think. The city is one of memories, and those that appear closer to the heart could be considered more cherished than those that appear outside. If that is true, then it is not a leap to assume that Icarium's dream of peaceful co-existence ended in failure. I find it unlikely that failure resulted in anything violent, perhaps eventually they just...left, and Icarium couldn't take it.

Jaghut. Though we shared your world, we never saw you as our foe. Jaghut, the T'lan Imass never understood - some people are simply too noble to he rivals. But then, perhaps it was that very nobility they so despised.
This phrasing means either Sag'Churok is wrong, Silverfox is wrong, or that they're both right, and we're reading it wrong. Hive-mind logic suggests the former, but Silverfox could be right, as the Imass were not foes to to Jaghut Tyrants until the Ritual, but merely slaves. The same could be said of the Jaghut. That's the only reconciliation I can make between the two accounts, but I find it more plausible Sag'Churok is right.

EDIT: Hey now, Bre'nigan gave me an idea. Perhaps Gothos' Ritual was the reason, and the K'Chain couldn't adapt to the changed climate? Bre'nigan's quote could be read that way.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 04 January 2010 - 12:58 PM

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

yeah, makes sense for the K'Chain on Lether, but they were mostly, if not completely wiped out on the continent before Gothos' ritual. Also, Gothos' ritual only affected the Lether subcontinent and Pran Chole was on Genabackis, but still, it could work. The widespread persecution of the Jaghut by the Imass caused them to raise barriers of ice, which in turn motivated the Imass to resort to the Ritual of Tellann. So, glaciers springing up all over the world would certainly cause some serious climate change, completing the eradication of the K'Chain...

Hmmm, thinking about timing...the first bit of the MoI prologue takes place as the Imass are on their way to the ritual and Morn is already abandoned...and in the MT prologue, Scabandari says that the last remaining enclave of K'Chain is at Morn so...it still works I guess, even if its a bit dodgy.

Not sure why Sag'Churok or Silverfox has to be wrong there MTS - I read it to mean that the K'Chain never saw the Jaghut as foes and, as I stated in my last post, the idea that 'the Jaghut were to the K'Chain what the Imass were to the Jaghut' could easily mean that they ignored each other. She doesn't say 'what the Imass were to the Jaghut Tyrants'

[MTS]

Bre, on 04 January 2010 - 01:34 PM, said:

yeah, makes sense for the K'Chain on Lether, but they were mostly, if not completely wiped out on the continent before Gothos' ritual. Also, Gothos' ritual only affected the Lether subcontinent and Pran Chole was on Genabackis, but still, it could work. The widespread persecution of the Jaghut by the Imass caused them to raise barriers of ice, which in turn motivated the Imass to resort to the Ritual of Tellann. So, glaciers springing up all over the world would certainly cause some serious climate change, completing the eradication of the K'Chain...

Hmmm, thinking about timing...the first bit of the MoI prologue takes place as the Imass are on their way to the ritual and Morn is already abandoned...and in the MT prologue, Scabandari says that the last remaining enclave of K'Chain is at Morn so...it still works I guess, even if its a bit dodgy.

I'm not talking about eradication here. The K'Chain obviously weren't, as they were fighting the Awl a little while ago, and have been chilling in the Wastelands for centuries. What I was talking about was the reason why the K'Chain left Icarias. There is a more salient reason for their diminished presence on the Lether continent in the Tiste invasions - Gothos' Ritual afterwards would have affected the survivors of that battle, and there couldn't have been many left afterwards, necessitating their flight.

Don't think about timing. Seriously, don't. It will make your head hurt. Plus, that's Genabackis. We don't know when Gothos' Ritual took place, only that it was not long after the Sundering.

Quote

Not sure why Sag'Churok or Silverfox has to be wrong there MTS - I read it to mean that the K'Chain never saw the Jaghut as foes and, as I stated in my last post, the idea that 'the Jaghut were to the K'Chain what the Imass were to the Jaghut' could easily mean that they ignored each other. She doesn't say 'what the Imass were to the Jaghut Tyrants'

Silverfox does not infer in that exchange that those two species ignored each other. The idea of slavery is definitely implied, and even stated.

'Before the Jaghut ruled this world, the K'Chain Che'Malle ruled. The first Jaghut were
to the K'Chain Che'Malle as the first Imass were to the Jaghut.' She paused, her heavy
gaze moving among them all. 'In each species is born the seeds of domination. Our wars
with the Jaghut destroyed us, as a living people, as a vibrant, evolving culture. That was
the price we paid, to ensure the freedom you now possess. Our eternal sacrifice.' - Silverfox

Thus if the two ignored each other, Silverfox must be wrong.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 04 January 2010 - 02:13 PM

[Abyss]

There's a comment from Jhenna to Temper in NoK which suggests that the Jaghut and KC were adverse in interest at some point, but we can only take that so far because Jhenna was a former tyrant and lied a lot.

My other thought is that there are a few distinct periods:
- the Jaghut civilization before the War on death, which probably co-existed peacefully with the KC civilization at that time;
- the KC civilization after the Jaghut were effectively destroyed as a race, at which point some Matrons may have been less than nice in their dealings with the survivors;
- Then once the Tiste invasion and KC/KN war ruined KC civilization, you have a handful of scattered Jaghut, the Tyrant trouble-makers, and the Imass Jihads just for good measure. AND an even smaller population of KC in the wastelands Rooted.


- Abyss, periodically.

[blackzoid]

Silverfox in MoI, more or less implied that the Jaghut were a threat to everyone and needed to be wiped out. And the same for the KCCM because they were apparently even worse.

However, Olar Ethil stated in DoD, that Kallor, not Silverfox was closer to the ancient truths. Kallor was the one defending the Jaghut in MoI and said that there were never more than a handful of Tyrants among the Jaghut. Now Olar Ethil is certanly a bit crazy (she basically made out that she was every important ancient female Ascendent under different names. I don't believe that!) but I think she's right about Silverfox. The KCCM were not Tyrants in any shape or form, they killed people yes, but they never seemed to keep slaves or demand worship. And the Jaghut did war against death for the benefit of all races.
The later Malazan books paint both of these races in a much different light to what was implied earlier.

I don't think Silverfox is a credible witness on the ancient past. I think she assumed much of the history that she related to the armies in MoI.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 04 January 2010 - 03:45 PM

[Abyss]

We know Imass histories can be inaccurate/incomplete, and those were the basis for most of Silverfox's knowledge, so her version is questionable.

- Abyss, historically inccurate.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Hmmm, well I'm torn - can't say that Silverfox isn't a good source as she has within her the soul of an Elder Goddess

my head is starting to hurt, but I'll push it a bit further ...

Gothos states that the Jaghut and Forkrul Assail 'shared this world', implying that they were present before the K'Chain colonization so Silverfox is also at odds with Gothos with her 'before the Jaghut, the K'Chain ruled' statement.

Ah well, as with so many other thigns, it comes down to a matter of personal preference in the end I suppose...

[blackzoid]

Silverfox was a somewhat emotional and unstable speedily aged-up person when we meet her in MoI. She has part of an
Elder Goddess, not all of her. Its not surprising that she may have confusing memories from the Nightchill part, along with inaccuracies from the Imass part.

Kallor stated in MoI that the KCCM were around before the arrival of the Elder Gods themselves and that if they had not had their civil war, then they would have kept the Elder Gods from coming to the world.
I know timeline issues are always tricky with the Malazan series, but thats a bit like the chicken and the egg. Silverfox could not have had complete firsthand knowledge of everything the KCCM (and perhaps the Jaghut/FA) did, if the Elder Gods only arrived when there was the first schism within the KCCM. Obviously they would have missed any earlier Jaghut/KCCM dealings. If there were any.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 04 January 2010 - 05:12 PM

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

I dunno, when Paran speaks with Nightchill in MoI, she seems in full control of herself - I wouldn't say that only part of her survives...good point about the K'Chain keeping the Elder Gods away but they were among the first entities in all creation, period fullstop - elemental forces and all that - though, Errastas says that they never denied any Ascendant a place in their pantheon, I don't think the Sister is one of the younger ones as she is referred to as one of the eldest (paraphrased) in the prologue of MoI...in any case she should have good info from the earliest times.

Not that this is really helpful...

[HoosierDaddy]

I think Silverfox is confused. She has some of Tattersails memories of the T'lan, some of Bellurdan's memories, and some of Nightchill' memories. It would not be surprising if these in fact created a jumble of history. Nightchill seems to have been walking around Wu for a long time, meaning her scope on the matter might be less broad than someone sitting on the sidelines.

[blackzoid]

Elder gods are certainly elemental beings, but all Kallor said was that the KCCM kept them from arriving on the world. Perhaps they existed elsewhere before the KCCM civil war. Anyway, I would always consider Kallor/Silverfox/Nightchill's accounts to be secondary to the accounts of one of the races involved. The records could be distorted (Kallor/Silverfox) or the recorder may not actually be there at the time(Nightchill).

1: Jhenna, the Jaghut Tyrant in NoK, stated that the Jaghut protected the humans from the KCCM. But she was fighting Temper at the time and had reason to lie. (She wanted out of the Deadhouse)

2: Sag'Churok's KCCM Hive memory stated that there was no major conflict. As he was thinking this to himeself, he would have no reason to lie. Thats good enough for me. They probably had a few isolated skirmishs, but not a full on war

[Morgoth]

My thoughts on this seems to differ a bit from the rest of you. I thought that by the time the KCCM arrived on WU, the Jaghut had long since passed their peak and was already well on the decline. Their war on death long since done.

Remember the vision of the Jaghut marching to war. Remember the powers of any individual Jaghut. It seems probable to me that the greatest of all civilizations belonged to them, long before the emergence of even the elder gods. I find it hard to believe that the KCCM, considering what we know of them, could even annoy the Jaghut at the height of their power.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

I think it's certainly true that the Jaghut civilization had come and gone before the arrival of the K'Chain in the mortal realm, but no way can I believe that their civilization pre-dated the Elder Gods. Everything we know about the earliest times has the Elder Gods being one of the first, if not the first entities in all creation.

[beru]

also remeber the undead jaghut saying/thinking (cant remember) that omtose destroyed the KCCM warren.
said before the total anilation of the huting grup of KCNR