[Morgoth]

Bre, on 05 January 2010 - 12:18 PM, said:

I think it's certainly true that the Jaghut civilization had come and gone before the arrival of the K'Chain in the mortal realm, but no way can I believe that their civilization pre-dated the Elder Gods. Everything we know about the earliest times has the Elder Gods being one of the first, if not the first entities in all creation.

I guess I didn't specify this properly. I meant the elder gods emergence on Wu. It would seem that the Jaghut originated there, whereas the Elder gods were born somewhere in the vicinity of Betlegeuse.

[Agraba]

Morgoth, on 05 January 2010 - 12:05 PM, said:

Remember the vision of the Jaghut marching to war. Remember the powers of any individual Jaghut. It seems probable to me that the greatest of all civilizations belonged to them, long before the emergence of even the elder gods. I find it hard to believe that the KCCM, considering what we know of them, could even annoy the Jaghut at the height of their power.

I disagree. Hedge took out Raest, one of the most powerful Jaghut who ever lived, with a piece of technology that is laughable to the KCCM. Also from what I've read, nothing on Wu ever had the same kind of power as a Matron, which we still haven't exactly seen in action (I think). I'm not saying the KCCM could overrun Jaghut at their peak of society, but they would definitely be a tremendous opponent, and they would have a chance.

[HoosierDaddy]

KCCM at their peak I think was before the Jaghut. Icarius is in the wasteland where the K'Chain fled to, not where they thrived.

[Morgoth]

but Icarias was also long after the decline of the Jaghut. At the completion of the city, the Jaghut had already become solitary, and returning to the city was perhaps their last glimpse of how they once were.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

I think it's pretty clear that the Jaghut civilization pre-dated the K'Chain civilization, at least in the mortal realm (the term SE uses, I refuse to call it Wu) - In the MT prologue, the K'Chain were in the midst of their civil war while the Jaghut were already scattered and few according to Scabandari. Further, as mentioned previously, Caladan Brood says that the Jaghut and Forkrul assail 'shared this world' as opposites and it seems highly unlikely that he would have omitted the K'Chain had they been present at the same time depth.

edit: corrected Gothos to Caladan Brood

This post has been edited by Bre'nigan: 06 January 2010 - 09:56 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

there is some kind of vision in DoD that talks about a blasted, dead world, where mountains had been carved out for skykeeps and the implication is that it is the k'chain homeworld. don't have my books on me atm, so quotes will have to wait till i get home, but i think it's entirely plausible that the jaghut and FA were around and had civilizations in the mortal realm before the k'chain invaded

EDIT: ah it seems i'm confusing two visions in my mind. there's kalyths vision of shadowed armies (in the shadow of skykeeps?)on a plain littered with burning k'chain wreckage, plunging through a gate to a realm with two suns. then there's gunth mach who remembers the times when the k'chain carved whole mountain ranges down to make their skykeeps. i think it's kalyths vision that could take place in a world the k'chain had used up and then moved on from. to a place with two suns... KE?

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 06 January 2010 - 11:16 PM

[Jorram]

Some more thoughts I once had about the chronology of the founding races:
http://forum.malazan...?showtopic=5837

back then i'd arrived at the same point - Silverfox must be wrong. In the topic above there is some additional evidence about that coming from Gothos' thoughts in RG prologue.

This topic is also an attempt to put the things together:
http://forum.malazan...?showtopic=7007

It's pretty certain now to me SE had it in mind that the KCCM predated by far the Jaghut. This is witnessed not only in Silverfox' explanations but also in the MOI prologue in the meeting between Pran Chole and Kilava. Kilava's always been referred to as a very awesome bonecaster, yet she barely knows anything about the KCCM at that point (and it happens in real time, i.e. not someone's POV).

Then he changed his mind or forgot about the timeline and went on with those passages starting from MT prologue on that pretty much screw it up entirely in regard to when did the KCCM arrive, rule, fall apart and flee to the wastelands. Hence all the confusion about the Jaghut's history.

Btw Kilava's lack of history regarding the KCCM is a little bit weird considering how every damn soldier in the malazan armies knows everything about everything but thats a minor issue in the big picture