[Korbas]

Liosan, on 11 December 2009 - 07:26 AM, said:

Back for a little bit, though quite busy.

Was there any particular reason you chose Karat as the other person to swap the action?

And Sorrit, you know of another power, but I am guessing from your phrasing it isn't yours, so that means you know of other characters? This suggests you have more information than most people.

Yes there was - the discussion on whether or not the vipers know one anothers identity. He said they probably did, I was adamant they didn't. From that I concluded that Karatallid is no big role, and thus, someone I could redirect to without the danger of frying another Viper: I'd hate for my plan to expose an actual Viper to a kill.

[Galayn Lord]

OK, so Korbas started to connect himself to Kalse, then hinted he was the kid so that the Bride would pick it up, conclude that Kalse was Bill, then Korbas deflected from Kalse to Karattalid, and waited to see who would attack Kalse after he failed to die.


Either Korbas and the Bride are the biggest geniuses this game ever saw, or there's simply the coincidence that Korbas happened to chose right.

[D'riss]

Ok, Korbas. I understand exactly what you're saying. Won't spell it out, since you've gone through great pains not to. As a couple of people have stated, it doesnt definitely mean Sorrit is scum, but I do believe you're telling the truth.

[Korbas]

Galayn Lord, on 11 December 2009 - 07:43 AM, said:

OK, so Korbas started to connect himself to Kalse, then hinted he was the kid so that the Bride would pick it up, conclude that Kalse was Bill, then Korbas deflected from Kalse to Karattalid, and waited to see who would attack Kalse after he failed to die.


Either Korbas and the Bride are the biggest geniuses this game ever saw, or there's simply the coincidence that Korbas happened to chose right.

And... we're there. That's the summary.

[Galayn Lord]

Well, just to add that either way it doesn't make a difference in the current discussion, unless Korbas has an additional point that I missed.

[Korbas]

Let's examine Sorrit's reply as to how I came to my vote.

Sorrit, on 10 December 2009 - 11:11 PM, said:

Korbas, on 10 December 2009 - 10:36 PM, said:

Not good enough, mate.
I will tell a tad bit of what I can do.

I can switch the targets of night actions.
I pick two people, and whatever targets the one, instead targets the other, and vice versa. The second I saw the role, I knew this would be a perfect trap to catch me a scum, if I was lucky and dared to play high profile. As you will see upon reading back, in my first post, I picked Kalse to vote for. He was convenient, for he was around already.
I then got into a pissing match with Spite, also very convenient to raise my profile and make killers read back on me. I hinted left and right at knowledge, and knew people would read back on me, and conclude I was someone who knows a viper.

Last night, I picked Kalse and Karatallid to exchange as targets.
Karatallid was a convenient target, as he and I had gotten into a shouting match on whether or not the Vipers knew one another - he said they did, I said they didn't. More ways to portray me as someone in the know.

Now, what happens today?
I see a case against Kalse.
Karatallid comes on and reveals he was the target of a kill.

Bingo. It isn't too hard to connect the dots, now is it?

So wait, what's the point of your story about how you wanted people to think you knew a viper? Doesn't seem to have any bearing on the rest of your actions. Interesting story - while I know for a fact that some kind of ability similar to yours (one that turns any abilities a player uses back on himself) is in the game, I'm really not sure I believe you, since I did no targetting of Kalse whatsoever.

Appear inno: 'wasn't me...'. Maybe not, you could also be a symp, but yours was straight out of the gates on a guy that had no other heat on him whatsoever, and there is no way we can check, right?

Quote

Besides, even if I had been scum trying to kill Kalse, why would I come and make a case straight away the following morning? This game is full of weird stuff - BPs, guards, heals, reflections...you can't and don't assume that you've hit a major target on Night 2 as scum - it's certainly not worth breaking your cover for, and I don't see how it makes sense for me to have hypothetically done so.

This is WIFOM at its purest. It doesn't make sense for a killer to do this! is the perfect way to plead you're inno. So, a good thing for a killer to do, no?

Quote

Your justifications seem a bit too convenient - all the pieces in your story fit together a bit too well. A trap for scum, you say? And you just happened to know that Kalse was going to be targetted for a kill. I refuse to believe that you are that prescient. This game never goes just as people have planned like that - never. Got to say, if you were pretending you had special knowledge, you hid it pretty well, because I didn't have a clue that's what you were going for. And let's face it, even if someone did spot your incredibly subtle fake hints, they'd come after you, since you're the one displaying the knowledge. No, I don't like that reveal at all.

You missed entirely what I had been building up to (as did a whole lot of other people, I guess), but then, dismissing it as too convenient is the best way of damage control and downplaying it. Since it concerns solely effects of night actions, I can hardly bring more proof or a great case full of quotes, and you know that.

All in all, I see no real defense here, just wifom. 'I can't defend myself against something based on night actions' would have been the correct reply, maybe matched with 'don't you think this was a coincidence?'

Instead, you open a can of wifom and try to discredit what is brought to bear against you, by saying it is too convenient.
I fully expect the part of team Viper that can, to investigate me or guard me, so what the fuck would be the gain were I scum?

[Liosan]

Well, if you were scum, and we are being fed a pack of lies, so Karat was the actual target not Kalse, and you are an ally of the Bride, you might see it as a good sacrifice to distract us for another day or two and keep us looking in the wrong place?

[Korbas]

Liosan, on 11 December 2009 - 08:28 AM, said:

Well, if you were scum, and we are being fed a pack of lies, so Karat was the actual target not Kalse, and you are an ally of the Bride, you might see it as a good sacrifice to distract us for another day or two and keep us looking in the wrong place?

With 2 vipers down already? Why?

Self sacrifice is only worth it if the gain matches it. Which is why a scum sacrificing himself trying to get the person lynched who he thinks is Bill , is potentially worth it (notice also how Sorrit built in an escape hatch: switching to Barghast) - and self sacrifice to force a delay isn't, at this stage. 2 people dead, 2 vipers. Come on, ever saw a better scum start?

[Korbas]

Anyway, at this stage, I believe I have made my suspicions sufficiently clear, I think. Will be around in the afternoon, but I have work to do.
For now, my suspicions for Bride and 'bridesmaids' are Sorrit - Liosan - ???

[Liosan]

Well, if Karatallid was the real target and so he was onto something with the people he suspected, you leading a lynch on someone completely different, while not having complete proof of their scumminess could delay us several days, as even if Sorrit turns up inno, you could claim that it was just logic that led you there, but your original claim is true, so we still don't end up looking at who would have targeted Karat.

Edit: And while the scum might already be in a good position with two vipers down, gaining them a free ride for several days for the loss of one of probably the "bridesmaids" would give them a great chance to wrap up the win.

Another fun possibility is that you and Karat have cooked this up between the two of you and there was no NA at all.

I will have a more thorough perusal of the logic behind all this when I have time in a few hours, as I have a test coming up, so got to revise for now.

This post has been edited by Liosan: 11 December 2009 - 09:02 AM

[Eloth]

Well caught up on thread and not sure what to make of it really.

I think the reveal from Korbas is believeable I am happy to go along with it, I don't really see it as a scum play at all, why bother trying something when its going so well?
My understanding is Korbas swapped anyone targeting Karatallid with Kalse, and vice versa. So that means to me someone definitly targeted Kalse for a kill.

My real dilemma is, would the killer who couldn't get the kill on Kalse then go on and make a case against him? I can see a few reasons for it, especially if Sorrit believed Kalse to be a Viper, a case on him could then lead him to the other Vipers. That does mean though that Soritt is not the Assassin as only the Bride would care about this.
It could also just be a not that unlikely coincedence. I'm not sure which way to go at this point, think its time for a reread of Sorrit and probably Kalse.

Also who wanted the Guard to reveal? Must go look back at that as well.

[Mockra]

I think it was Kalse who wanted the guard to reveal, if I remember correctly. Maybe not though. I miss the old board's search function. Looking through individual poster's stuff on this board is annoying.

I can believe Korbas' reveal (once I'd sorted it in my head). But I'm not sure that necessarily means Sorrit is scum. Is there anything else tripping radars today?

[Liosan]

Quote

So wait, what's the point of your story about how you wanted people to think you knew a viper? Doesn't seem to have any bearing on the rest of your actions. Interesting story - while I know for a fact that some kind of ability similar to yours (one that turns any abilities a player uses back on himself) is in the game, I'm really not sure I believe you, since I did no targetting of Kalse whatsoever.

A point about that last sentence. Sorrit doesn't believe Korbas's reveal because he didn't target Kalse? What about the possibility that other people targeted Kalse with a kill? That reads to me like Sorrit admitting he has a killing power. Obviously I could be reading it wrong, but for me that's reason enough to:

Vote Sorrit

[Sorrit]

So I've had a night to sleep on it, and woke up this morning less convinced that Korbas is scum. He does in fact have a those signals dropped in there (and though I don't know anything about the Kill Bill films, a friend of mine assured me that the references make sense), and as he himself points out, the reveal doesn't make complete tactical sense if he were scum.

Remove Vote

He's still barking up the wrong tree though - I'm not 100% sold on that over complicated plan of his, but even if that was what he was going for, it's nothing more than coincidence.



EDIT: XPo with Liosan.

This post has been edited by Sorrit: 11 December 2009 - 01:18 PM

[Sorrit]

Liosan, on 11 December 2009 - 01:17 PM, said:

Quote

So wait, what's the point of your story about how you wanted people to think you knew a viper? Doesn't seem to have any bearing on the rest of your actions. Interesting story - while I know for a fact that some kind of ability similar to yours (one that turns any abilities a player uses back on himself) is in the game, I'm really not sure I believe you, since I did no targetting of Kalse whatsoever.

A point about that last sentence. Sorrit doesn't believe Korbas's reveal because he didn't target Kalse? What about the possibility that other people targeted Kalse with a kill? That reads to me like Sorrit admitting he has a killing power. Obviously I could be reading it wrong, but for me that's reason enough to:

Vote Sorrit

You're reading it wrong - I used the word targetting because Korbas' action was to switch all actions that target Kalse. The reason I didn't believe Korbas' reveal had nothing to do with the fact I didn't target Kalse (though I didn't), but more to do with how neatly it fitted together with Karatallid's reveal and my case this morning.

[Liosan]

but why did you put since? That implies the reason you don't believe it because you didn't target Kalse.

[Karatallid]

Alright, so I wake up,make a bowl of cereal, and sit down to catch up, fully expecting there to be some sort of mention of my case on Bargy, or at the least someone suspicious of my reveal. Yet here we are sitting around with our thumbs up our collective arses, trying to figure out this cluster fuck of a reveal. For the record, please draw your attention to the fact that Bargy keeps ignoring the fact that Mockra is symping (or hell even fake symping) him. And Mockra laughs off my accusations. Anyway I am going to be off and on, not sure if I will make the deadline, but Im sticking with my vote.

Also - Whoever said that I argued with them over if the vipers could communicate (Sorrit?), I still think that they at least know each other. Or at least know who Bill is, and so can follow his lead to not kill each other. Anyway, I have to go, I'll be back a little later.

[Alkend]

Ok after a slight reread, at the moment i am inclined to believe Korbas' reveal as it is possible and he does seem to have put in hints and stuff to back up his claim. I dont understand why he revealed so early though as i would have thought hed be better using his role from secret and trying to get people lynched without revealing what he is.
While i am inclined to believe him on his reveal, im not that sure i buy his conclusion that the person making a case on his switch target is probably scum as there are a few other possibilities of what it could be, so for now i think il hold off in voting, while i do a better reread.

[Shadow]

Kalse, on 11 December 2009 - 03:21 AM, said:

before i go on to talking bout Korbas' reveal, im just gonna throw out there that right now I think Shadow is the assassin. this is definitely tainted by a little bit of OMGUS, but even then, as I continuously pushed him and argued against his case for someone other than myself for what no doubt seemed like little good reason, and he kept arguing back at him, and I voted for him ever-so quickly, but he still wouldn't go far enough to vote for me despite all the sympage and abuse I hurled. The only person who voted for me was instead:

Sorrit, on 10 December 2009 - 06:22 PM, said:

Another viper gone .

As Galayn Lord pointed out, the possibility of going after a viper seems to be a monkey on people's backs, which makes it less likely that other cases are going to be pushed all that hard. After 3-4 votes were put on, it became almost inevitable that a lynch was going to happen. However, this train does give us some information to work with.

The fact that the train was built on a player who had said that he wouldn't be back until deadline could be important - it's much easier to build up momentum on a case when your target isn't around to defend himself, after all. For that reason, I'm a little suspicious of Kalse - he was the one who kicked things off with his vote.

Kalse, on 10 December 2009 - 05:10 AM, said:

well after extensive rereading and nodding off a few times, i dont like any of the main candidates so far. fener may be angry and shouty but in this case he was right to be pissed about people putting words in his mouth. words of straw. and i cant see how that makes for a vote-worthy reaction if its justified like that.

The entire Barghast train is based solely on a single post point wherein he came back all righteous and over-reactive after Spite's death-by reveal, which may not be the most open-minded kind of reaction, but it's one post and doesn't paint him as scum solely by that. I need more to go on than that.

The closest thing to a believable case I can see is Tellan, who has alternated from joining into pissing contests to later trying to be the voice of reasoning. Despite the new logical tone of voice, he's still over-exerting himself in trying to push a case on Mockra that amounts to little more than "he made a stupid suggestion". This tunnel-visioned offensive, whilst trying to achieve a more sheep-inducing style of argument, seems to me to be the most likely voice of scum from amongst the current bunch. More likely a supporting scum and not the Bride herself, but it's all I can see at the moment and I'd like to give Tellan more exposure than just that single pseudo-OMGUS vote from Mockra. Therefore,

Vote Tellan

and with that im signing off for the evening as i have plenty of work to do before i hop into bed in a few hours. rest assured i sincerely doubt ill get up in the mid of the night to be on before the deadline. night!

Note that he says that he's unlikely to be around before deadline. This casts the seeds of doubt about time pressure in people's minds. The pretext is that he wants to give Tellan more exposure, but what he essentially did was set him up for a lynch. He knew Tellan wasn't going to be back, so he set the ball rolling in the hope of thinning the ranks of the town.

I'll have a look at some of Kalse's other posts later, but for now I'm going to drop a vote.

Vote Kalse


Note that I also find Barghast suspicious for similar reasons.

...none other than the guy I was defending/symping against Shadow's arguments. it would have been no stretch for him to turn at vote me but he didn't, and thus IGMEOY Shadow cause you seem to be trying really hard to stay low and unsuspicious in the tall grasses of my native Uganda. For now thats all though since im definitely of the opinion we should be focusing on the bride, now with only 3 vipers left alive.

Just sayin'. Now on to the stuff that matters!

Why are you taking this stuff out of order?

I attack sorrit.
Sorrit attacks you.
I re-affirm my vote upon Sorrit in the new day.
You then defend Sorrit.
And you now claim that even though you seem to be symping sorrit, I don't change my vote to you? Of course not, because I think Sorrit is your master!
I agree, we should be attacking the bride. Hence my vote on Sorrit.

[Olar Ethil]

yawn
i'm back

I see Shadow's back too. Maybe he can elaborate why he threw me in the same category of ppl as Sorritt.