[Throne of War]

I just want to get some feedback from the rest of you guys. So, who's the badest low-down mofo in this town with the steel? I know choices are beligerant and numerous and don't feel limited to swords specifically (i.e. Trull's spear, Broods hammer). I think Brys Beddict gets my vote for what could've been.

[Grief]

How far have you read?

This thread discusses best sworfighter quite fully, however, I would seriously advise you do not read it if you've not read up to Dust of Dreams(there are massive spoilers that you wouldn't want if you've not).

http://forum.malazan...opic=13592&st=0

[Throne of War]

Grief,

Thanks for the heads up. I'm in the midst of BH and realize a lot is yet to happen. I'm really just looking for name and not explanations to accompany them. Since joining this forum, I tool around in the encyclopedia to try and research some stuff I don't understand so well and naturally, I've come across some things I shouldn't have yet. I don't lose much sleep over it and now I'm a bit more cautious. In any event, I just wanna know whose putting money down on what horse, and what the odds are. You savvy?

[Ulrik]

To be honest - in one book you´ll read is your question pretty solved...(in pretty direct manner), but we cant tell you who and why, bcause there are two names and explanation will ruin your experience...totally... OK, you can argue, but...still you need to read it (or splash one crucial part by spoiler).

[Throne of War]

Ulrik, on 06 December 2009 - 06:09 PM, said:

To be honest - in one book you´ll read is your question pretty solved...(in pretty direct manner), but we cant tell you who and why, bcause there are two names and explanation will ruin your experience...totally... OK, you can argue, but...still you need to read it (or splash one crucial part by spoiler).

Fair enough. Dassem vs. Rake?

[Silencer]

Oh, now *that* is a good pairing.

Plenty of top swordsman spec, though:

Anomander
Dassem
Karsa
Brys
Seguleh First (ranges between here and above Karsa)
Seguleh Second
Seguleh Third (coulde be as good as the First)
Tool (could be higher than the Seg Second, even)
Silchas Ruin/Trull Sengar/Icarium (variable positions)
Caladan Brood (quite possibly up with Dassem, but no evidence whatsoever that we've seen, other than his un-mention in MoI)
Kallor
Spinnock Durav
Greymane

And so on down the list. Essentially, the only ones that I'm adamant on, are the top three. For me, that *is* the order, regardless of "what if's", as evidence in later books points to this as the correct order.

[Ulrik]

Silencer, on 06 December 2009 - 10:55 PM, said:

Tool (could be higher than the Seg Second, even)

Tool was beaten by Mok...cant see him higher than Second...oh, I love this speculations:) But cant argue anymore, leaving to hospital without WiFi...damn...

EDIT: And you forgot Iron Bars, Skinner and Blues! )

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 06 December 2009 - 11:18 PM

[Mischiefs' Folly]

Whiskeyjack would have had Kallor, if hood had not turned away a healers touch. When Dujek found out what had happened, he talked about how Whiskeyjack use to spare with Dassem, and it took awhile for Dassem to get past his guard.

[Silencer]

Eh, unlikely. Kallor also slipped on a spear, which is the only reason WJ had an opening.

And regarding Tool, RAFO.

The Crimson Guard are not what they're talked up to be, imo. They only do well because they are immune to damage, they seem to be lacking in actual skill (once again, RAFO)

*RAFO = read and find out, just fyi.

[blackzoid]

Thats a close enough list for me, Grief. Would just quibble on Kara's placing.
And put on Skinner and got rid of Caladan as he is too much an unknown. Ya he is mentioned in the same breath as some legends but we have never seen him fight.

For Me its:

Anomander
Dassem
Brys
Seguleh First
Seguleh Second
Mok/Seguleh Third (could be as good as the First, I agree)
Tool
Skinner/Kallor/Silchas Ruin/Trull Sengar/Icarium/Karsa (variable positions depending on circumstances/plot)
Spinnock Durav/Greymane

I have not put the Assasins on there (Cotillion/Apsalar/Kalam) cos its not easy to place them with guys that have swords. They seem to belong in a class of their own.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 11 December 2009 - 11:03 AM

[Ulrik]

Silencer, on 07 December 2009 - 07:34 AM, said:

The Crimson Guard are not what they're talked up to be, imo. They only do well because they are immune to damage, they seem to be lacking in actual skill (once again, RAFO)

I oppose!!! )

Iron Bars vs. damned Toblakai "gods" (or Gods, damn, here is everyone god if he wishes), Blues in GotM. I agree that many, really many of them benefits from extreme resilience, but, well, some are frakin swordsmans.

I read and found...nothing new:) Tool is still formidable uber bastard but with his future state nothing changed IMO. Bone or flesh...he is First sword...but there are better and MoK pwned him (sorry, it was stronger than me, I love this stupid nerdspeak). And for CG... same here. "we know who" from CG (I do not want to spoiler) was beaten by "we know who 2" but... 2 is in my mind on 1-2 postion. Actually we´ve seen only Iron Bars in some duel...and yes, to this speculations gives hard finger inconsistency of RotCG... so its fun and useless... but still fun:)

[Binder of Demons]

I have 3 more names which could be added to the list.
Andarist, since we saw how formidable he was despite his extreme age, and how badly he had been injured. Since he was also wielding Vengence/Grief we know he was a swordsman of singular will. Adding in his bloodline, I think he would have been certainly of a level similar (or perhaps even higher than) Silchas, which I personally would put higher than Kallor.

A personal favourite of mine is Temper, one of Dassem's "First Sword". But his skill level seems to vary depending on who is writing him. ICE thinks VERY highly of him, whereas SE hasn't really shown us how powerful he thinks Temper really is. But from the flashbacks in Night of Knives alone, we know he was able to fight a patroned champion to a standstill despite taking heavy wounds, while also trying to protect Dassem (super skilled opponent) and also take on a very angry Jaghut (massive brute force opponent). Now i will concede that his real skill seems to be in fighting an almighty defensive stand, and it was commented on also that he could even defend himself against Dassem for a significant time. Again it's hard to know since both times he was trying to simply hold out and he stuck to that task, but it is the awed reaction of everyone else that sets him apart.

From RotCG, you also have Rell, who showed some spectacular skill, but i don't really want to get into spoiler territory so i'll leave it at that. He is clearly meant to be of a level that would get him onto this list.

In terms of pure skill i think it's pretty much a coin toss between Brys/Dassem/Rake. But if you throw in their ascendant powers also, then Brys would lose out.

[Ulrik]

Yes, this is problem with ICE´s writing. In some cases it looks very inconsistent with rest of MBoF. Rell is shiny, glimmering example, from his talk we can count him somewhere between 10-40 and fights like demon.

[Koko187]

I agree with Ulrik about the Avowed. Some of them certainly have the skill needed to get on the list... In RotCG it is mentionet several times that Skinner fought with Dassem to a standstill. Though we don't know the circumstances, I think we should rank Skinner at least third. And regarding Iron Bars: He was almost defeated by some seguleh of unknown rank, probably outside the top twenty at least, so he should not be included anywhere near here...

About Brys: I don't see why he would rank so high, he has done hardly anything. Brys did defeat Rhulad, but I don't see anything special in it, besides that we haven't really seen him in action. The idea of Brys defeating Icarium or Karsa just seems... completely ridiculous to me.

It seems that you have also forgotten the champion of light, Osserc, who is about on par with Anomander. And in the light of recent events, I think we should add another new name to the list: Draconus

Also: I think Karsa and Icarium should rank much higher, though I don't know if Icarium will be in shape to fight anymore.

So here's my list:

Anomander / Osserc / Draconus
Dassem
Skinner
Seguleh First
Icarium / Karsa
Seguleh Second
Mok / Seguleh Third
Silchas Ruin / Trull Sengar
Tool / Brys
Blues/Kallor/
Spinnock Durav/Greymane


I haven't finished RotCG yet, so please correct me if there is something in the end of the book to prove Skinner to be a much lousier swordsman than I believe. And what of Kyle?

[Ulrik]

Kyle is immature sucker:)))
to Skinner - RAFO, I wont spoil your experience, thats evil!
to Iron Bars - well, as I said, inconsistency, but for him plays two things - was deeply wounded and ICE loves Seguleh and overestimate them (eh, can author overestimate its own characters?) in every page he can (Rell winks in corner).




UPDATE: Reread is useful. Iron Bars in few seconds anihilates Edur shock troop and kills Rhulad who already fights like "his arms were blurry" and disembowells every Letherii in his way (MT, scene where is Seren Pedac saved and Edur fleet disembarks).

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 12 December 2009 - 01:28 AM

[End of Disc One]

I'm also of the opinion that Brys is the best normal human out there. To the guy who said "all he did was defeat Rhulad," you have to think about how he defeated him. He cut all the necessary tendons like a surgeon, making sure he kept him alive.

Of course, there are a lot of ascendants and partial ascendants that would rank above him.

[blackzoid]

Ya, what Brys/Mok did as normal humans was pretty much amazing.
Other swordsmen may relay too much on inate strength/Ascendent power.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 15 December 2009 - 03:11 PM

[Silencer]

Spoiler tags please, people. This isn't a book forum, so everything should be covered.

Regards Bars, the thing in RotCG is what I consider to show his skills to be less than SE displays them as. Author disparity, but hey.
And Skinner, too.

Essentially the guard cheat.

[Jusentantaka]

Brys. Fencing styles don't get nearly enough love in the nerd-world, and it was nice to see it for once. Maybe a bad grounds for a choice, but hey, it could be worse.

[blanketman2.0]

T'amber anyone