[Silencer]

Just skipping back into this thread:

Binder of Demons, on 11 December 2009 - 05:02 PM, said:

I have 3 more names which could be added to the list.
Andarist, since we saw how formidable he was despite his extreme age, and how badly he had been injured. Since he was also wielding Vengence/Grief we know he was a swordsman of singular will. Adding in his bloodline, I think he would have been certainly of a level similar (or perhaps even higher than) Silchas, which I personally would put higher than Kallor.

No, Andarist is not a swordsman of singular will, otherwise he would not have lost. Hence his will was not equal to the task, and so he is not the equivalent of the sword's previous wielder before he 'traded up'.

Koko187, on 11 December 2009 - 05:23 PM, said:

I agree with Ulrik about the Avowed. Some of them certainly have the skill needed to get on the list... In RotCG it is mentionet several times that Skinner fought with Dassem to a standstill. Though we don't know the circumstances, I think we should rank Skinner at least third.
I haven't finished RotCG yet, so please correct me if there is something in the end of the book to prove Skinner to be a much lousier swordsman than I believe. And what of Kyle?

Yes, this is very much a case of RAFO, as ROTCG large spoiler:

Spoiler

Dassem basically kills Skinner twenty times, who is only saved by his invulnerable armour, until Dassem stabs him in the throat. Perhaps Skinner was just being lazy due to the armour...but that seems unlikely. He'd know how good Dassem is, and wouldn't want to take any risks there. As to the fight in the past between those two, there is no definitive truth on either side, except that Skinner was the only member of the Avowed to have made it through a confrontation with Dassem alive - no details are given of what happened, and it's to Skinner's advantage to propagate the rumours.

Kyle...he is nothing on this list. Perhaps ICE just did a poor job of showing his skill, but I was under the distinct impression that the only reason he was any good at any time was right near the end due to 'his' sword cutting through everyone's shields and weapons. That's not skill, that's equipment.

Though I do agree about Osseric/Osserc/Serc and Draconus being ON the list, placing them is harder.
Spoilers up to DoD:

Spoiler

Anomander defeated Draconus, but Mael gives us a lot to think about by implying that the Consort wanted it to happen. In this situation we have the question: COULD he have stopped it? As with Rake vs Dassem, there is no clear answer, though in the latter case we have the fact that Rake engineered his death to occur via Dragnipur, which points to a superior level of skill. Draconus on the other hand may have planned it all out, but that doesn't mean he was capable of *actually* beating Rake, though I do put him relatively on par due to comments by Killy and co. Osseric on the other hand...I've repeatedly got the distinct impression that Rake tended to win their engagements, and let Osseric go. I know, there isn't any direct evidence, but I've just always read some passages as indicating that. Plus, a lot of it comes down to equipment: Rake, as he used to be, with Vengeance? Theoretically unbeatable, until his will lost its singularity. Rake, with Dragnipur? A one-wound-kill sword? That's a true test of Osseric's skill, sure, but somewhat biased in Rake's favour. So that's where we have issues with placing those three, imo. I'm sure they're all up in the top 5, but exact location is subject to lack of evidence, except in Rake's instance.

[Iskar Jarak]

I'm thinking probably Karsa, but don't forget anyone who holds the "bell-handeld sword" if you get killed you come back better than whoever it was that killed you. If you can hold on long enough eventually you become the best swordsman ever, if you can withstand dying thousands of times that is.

[Silencer]

Rhulad's sword is an interesting one. The question is: If he fought Rake, and got stabbed with Dragnipur, would he be able to come back? Does he get stuck in Dragnipur or go to the CG's island? Hrm...

[blanketman2.0]

Silencer, on 08 March 2010 - 06:28 AM, said:

Rhulad's sword is an interesting one. The question is: If he fought Rake, and got stabbed with Dragnipur, would he be able to come back? Does he get stuck in Dragnipur or go to the CG's island? Hrm...

maybe the CG would appear in the sword?

[Gathras]

blanketman2.0, on 09 March 2010 - 04:05 AM, said:

Silencer, on 08 March 2010 - 06:28 AM, said:

Rhulad's sword is an interesting one. The question is: If he fought Rake, and got stabbed with Dragnipur, would he be able to come back? Does he get stuck in Dragnipur or go to the CG's island? Hrm...

maybe the CG would appear in the sword?

What exactly do you mean by that? That he will be the one chained in Dragnipur or that he will appear in front of the one that was slain with it?

Ok doesn't matter either way cause I don't think that either one is possible. If old Chainy could have been Dragnipured then they would have probably done it before to get rid of him instead of chaining him to Burn. On the other hand Chainy isn't very flexible as to where he wants to move and he isn't very powerful outside of his tent, so I guess freeing his "minion" from Dragnipur would not be possible for him.

I think if the wielder of the sword got killed by Dragnipur he would be chained as everybody else...

[Grayghost]

Well, since this is all opinion and conjecture...

Pure swordman: Brys Beddict. Having fenced for 11 years, what Brys did was surgical precision, not brute force.

Best defence: Trull Sengar. If not for equipment failure, who knows how long he would have stood up to Icarium or Silichus.

Unstoppable force: Karsa Orlang/Icarium and possibly the Keeper.

Best Knives: Apsalar...I love Kalam but...

Top Ascendent: Anomander Rake, even without the sword.

Now, I am only on Toll the Hounds (just started) and haven't read Return of the Jedi...ahem, I mean Crimson Guard, so there are some gaps in my knowledge, so this is based on what I have read so far.

Only my opinion.

[RSM616]

DONT READ THIS POST UNLESS YOUVE READ TOLL OF THE HOUNDS





Anomander is by far the best sword weilder he only gets beaten by letting dassem hit his sword into his face so he could enter dragnipur and bring about mother darks return.
Dassem is definatly second place however with the others its too close to call and id liek SE to write more about the seguleh before ranking them because they seem formidable but nothing is really known its mainly speculation. Also i dont think anyone has mention trakes mortal sword gruntle, hes fairly formidable with swords aswell

[Luzburg]

Grayghost, on 01 April 2010 - 08:21 AM, said:

Well, since this is all opinion and conjecture...

Pure swordman: Brys Beddict. Having fenced for 11 years, what Brys did was surgical precision, not brute force.

Best defence: Trull Sengar. If not for equipment failure, who knows how long he would have stood up to Icarium or Silichus.

Unstoppable force: Karsa Orlang/Icarium and possibly the Keeper.

Best Knives: Apsalar...I love Kalam but...

Top Ascendent: Anomander Rake, even without the sword.

Now, I am only on Toll the Hounds (just started) and haven't read Return of the Jedi...ahem, I mean Crimson Guard, so there are some gaps in my knowledge, so this is based on what I have read so far.

Only my opinion.

I say temper as best defence.

[The son of darkness]

The finest swordman i would say is rake closely followed by dassem and the segulah first.

[Cable]

Do we know who the Seguleh First is or do we know anything about who he's fought? I'm due for a re-read soon, so I'll keep an eye out, but...

Spoiler

not sure why, I was under the impression that Rake was the Seguleh First . Forget which book, but someone (possibly Rake) is explaining when he went to the Seguleh island and was fighting many of them.

Can't really remember, if someone could shed some light on this I'd appreciate.

[champ]

Cable, on 05 August 2010 - 06:29 AM, said:

Do we know who the Seguleh First is or do we know anything about who he's fought? I'm due for a re-read soon, so I'll keep an eye out, but...

Spoiler

not sure why, I was under the impression that Rake was the Seguleh First . Forget which book, but someone (possibly Rake) is explaining when he went to the Seguleh island and was fighting many of them.

Can't really remember, if someone could shed some light on this I'd appreciate.

Spoiler

iirc rake's ranked 7th then he took off otherwise he would of had to keep fighting

This post has been edited by champooon: 05 August 2010 - 07:42 AM

[Silencer]

Yes,

Spoiler

the official line is that he was kinda tired after fighting 'dozens' of Seguleh, finishing up with the Seventh. XD

[GingerBreadMan]

Silencer, on 05 August 2010 - 08:15 AM, said:

Yes,

Spoiler

the official line is that he was kinda tired after fighting 'dozens' of Seguleh, finishing up with the Seventh. XD

Helps that Rake can "win" by grazing his opponent whereas his opponent has to inflict actual damage while avoiding getting touched by Dragnipur.

[Silencer]

To be fair, I honestly

Spoiler

don't think that would have made much difference up to and including the Seventh. What we've seen of the Third is impressive, but Rake fights for keeps, and if he can get past your guard to graze you, he's probably already won, Dragnipur or not, imo. After all, consider this is a race of people who dedicate their lives to fighting, who take it so far as to call the outcomes of some fights after a few passes...and Rake got past the Seventh's guard? Yeah.
Add to that, we don't know how he killed each of them - he might have stabbed the Seventh through the chest, in which case the 'advantage' of Dragnipur is hardly involved, right?

[Johnny Phoenix]

It's impossible to know for sure who is the best, but that list definitely sounds right. I don't think Icarium should be on it though. Icarium isn't so much a swordman but more of a weapon of mass destruction and I don't think anyone in the Malazan world could take him if he's fully enraged.

Also, there's no way to know how good the Seguleh Second and First are. The First might just be the most badass swordmaster in the book. I'm sure Assail's population has some mean swordsmen as well.

This post has been edited by Johnny Phoenix: 07 August 2010 - 02:06 PM

[GingerBreadMan]

I disagree in regards to Icarium, he has showed great skill over the series.

I'm not sure he is the equal of Rake/Segulueh 1st but he is right there with Karsa and while his rage is a deciding factor I think you have to remember that when enraged he also shows a lack of intelligence..

Meaning he could be even deadlier if he was calm and relaxed as opposed to trying to shatter everything in his path

Silencer, on 06 August 2010 - 07:13 AM, said:

To be fair, I honestly

Spoiler

don't think that would have made much difference up to and including the Seventh. What we've seen of the Third is impressive, but Rake fights for keeps, and if he can get past your guard to graze you, he's probably already won, Dragnipur or not, imo. After all, consider this is a race of people who dedicate their lives to fighting, who take it so far as to call the outcomes of some fights after a few passes...and Rake got past the Seventh's guard? Yeah.
Add to that, we don't know how he killed each of them - he might have stabbed the Seventh through the chest, in which case the 'advantage' of Dragnipur is hardly involved, right?

I disagree, we have seen top level characters get past another's guard without delivering a killing blow.


Having a weapon that kills upon touch is a HUGE advantage that would drastically alter every battle/fight

[Trull's son]

Let us not forget the Watch, Yeddan Derryg. In DoD, he reminded me of the flashback of Silchas and the Forkrul in MT.

[Captain Awesome]

"Also i dont think anyone has mention trakes mortal sword gruntle, hes fairly formidable with swords aswell "

I would also second him for the list seeing how he can survive MoI and that is a rare feat, Trull should get some more love on the list too. But at the level we're talking about under the top 4 or 5 it's almost about luck as it is skill because they would be so closely matched imo.

Rake
DU/Osserc
Skinner
1st/Mok
Brys

this is my list until I think of it again in about 20minutes and it changes

[Tattersail_]

Spoiler

why do people place rake first? I think Dassem could have took him without Rake going suicidal. Karsa beat that Segulah and broke her hands didn't he? just by stamping his foot. We have never seen Osserc fight, but he does give Dassem room to pause in ROTCG.

I think my list would be:

Dassem
Rake
Karsa
Kallor
Brys

[Grief]

Spoiler

Because Rake manipulated the fight. He got the outcome he wanted, dassem didn't. As well as this, Osserc basically ignores dassem, and Rake is of a similar level(though this could just be down to the fact that Osserc could wipe dassem out without the need to be a better swordsman, as could rake have if he'd wished). Rakes accomplishments are also more impressive, and he has a lot more experience. It was debated a lot in the thread I linked to earlier in the thread though. It's subjective of course, since there's not really a way of telling who would've won if they'd both actually been trying to kill each other. The evidence favours Rake-though we've not seen much of Dassem so again, hard to tell.

Toll spoilers in this and the above post.