[Ulrik]

Well, its clearly matter of everyone´s taste. For me was fragmentarised storytelling divided into many BH´s very fresh and entertaining. But as many readers cursed TtH, it will be surprise if in DoD case would be 100% Agreement Party. 

Both sides will have to live with it... bitching in circles is useless. 

[lord of tragedy]

i didn't realise i was bitching in a circle bitching in a circle bitching in a circle bitching in a circle bitching in a circle bitching in a circle bitching in a circle bitching in a circle bitching in a circle bitching in a circle...................................

[ritchiediaz]

One thing to consider Lord of Tragedy - how much would your opinion change on TTH if the last 150-200 pages weren't there?

The climax of Toll the Hounds was fuck-awesome, but if you take that away it's easily the poorest book in the series so far IMO.

Dust of Dreams essentially is missing that last 200 pages...

[Abyss]

 ritchiediaz, on 04 December 2009 - 03:41 PM, said:

One thing to consider Lord of Tragedy - how much would your opinion change on TTH if the last 150-200 pages weren't there?

The climax of Toll the Hounds was fuck-awesome, but if you take that away it's easily the poorest book in the series so far IMO.

But the entire book was building to that climax... it's the pay-off for the whole thing. isn't that like saying JAWS is a crap movie if the shark had just swum off to wherever it came from before the last 45min or so?

In that respect perhaps TtH is different from most of the other books... i think only MT has a similar 'build to the big finish' approach where everything is leading to the finale... sure there are smaller conflicts along the way, but it's the finale that ties it all up. Unlike say TB, where Yghatan and Paran v Poliel are arguably as big 'events' as Malaz island or the battle for the First Throne.

Quote

Dust of Dreams essentially is missing that last 200 pages...

According to SE, DoD is only the first half of (that part of) the story.

- Abyss, wants the second half NOW.

[lord of tragedy]

ritchie i would still say that DOD was a work of genius. its a completely different sort of novel. for me its focus wasn't the climax or even any sense of narrative progression. the greatest novel ever written, Ulysees by james Joyce, dealt with twenty four hours of the lives of two inhabitants of dublin in 1904. they wonder the city on a ramblin journey, interacting with the cities mundane, mad and or perverted inhabitants. its famous for nothing really happening. but it is very avant garde and beautifully written. it defies the ideas of plot or progression. they wonder lost and aimlessly. the paralells with DOD are striking. the real star in both books is the cty itself. the little vignettes of life within the city. the people torn apart at the crippled gods temple for example, were eriksons way of layering depth upon depth, to capture perfectly the rythym of life within darujistan. joyce had it easy in a way, he was doing it for a real city. SE does it for an imaginary one.

so i didn't need the climax, as jaw dropping as it was. i loved the way all the wanderers seemed to converge at the same time.

so i don't think he was building to the climax abyss. i think he was trying to show how everyone, including ascendants, lives and dies in darujistan. the eternal city is the star. the enslaved imass in the mine, the guy punching people to death. its all about the local colour and the constant nature of it. people have lived and died here for aeons.

[ritchiediaz]

Abyss,

Quote

According to SE, DoD is only the first half of (that part of) the story.

That's exactly what I was trying to point out - Dust of Dreams is the only book in the series that Steve has deliberately written a preface explaining that Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God are essentially 2 halves of a larger book.

I was suggesting that having a direct comparison of DOD to Toll the Hounds is flawed because Toll the Hounds had it's climax it was building to, everything that DOD is building towards is still to come.

And I agree, I want it now!

[Abyss]

 ritchiediaz, on 05 December 2009 - 09:43 AM, said:

Abyss,

Quote

According to SE, DoD is only the first half of (that part of) the story.

That's exactly what I was trying to point out ...

ok that makes more sense than what i thought you were saying. But do you mean that is a good way (ie: DoD is an awesome first half of a two-book story) or in a bad way (DoD is fail because it's only half the story)?



- Abyss, interrogative.

[ritchiediaz]

 Abyss, on 07 December 2009 - 05:29 PM, said:

But do you mean that is a good way (ie: DoD is an awesome first half of a two-book story) or in a bad way (DoD is fail because it's only half the story)?



- Abyss, interrogative.

Definitely an awesome 1st half of a two-book story.

It's very hard for anything to top the climax of TTH, but what I was trying to point out is without that climax, TTH was all build up - Dust of Dreams didn't have that climax and resolution and was still fantastic IMO, as explained, Dust of Dreams ticked a lot of boxes for the things that I am most fascinated about in MBOTF, whereas it did not for Lord of Tragedy - subjective taste and all that.

Lord of Tragedy did not like the Gesler, Stormy - K'Chain plotline and found it contrived - I on the other hand found the Dying God plotline in TTH by far the most contrived of anything in MBOTF so far.

As far as Gesler, Stormy and K'Chain goes, I still think that there is some kind of link between Fener being on Letheras, and Stormy and Gesler being Boar Cult members - where Redmask failed, it makes a lot of sense that Stormy and Gesler could succeed - it was a war with the Nah'Ruk after all. I expect that Fener on Letheras will be a factor in the Crippled God - the evidence points to it:-

Stormy, Gelser & K'Chain
Heboric being in Kaylyth's dream
Heboric, Stormy & Gesler are all linked to Fener
Heboric put his 'alien' stump into Stormy's wound adding a further link.
Fener is lurking in Letheras somehow connected to Errastas.

When looking at the big picture it all makes sense to me, and not contrived at all - ironically, I found Redmask in Reaper's Gale contrived and confusing UNTIL Dust of Dreams.

[Abyss]

 ritchiediaz, on 07 December 2009 - 07:00 PM, said:

...As far as Gesler, Stormy and K'Chain goes, I still think that there is some kind of link between Fener being on Letheras, and Stormy and Gesler being Boar Cult members ...

You raise an interesting point there but i'll post it over in the 'Abyss just finished it' thread so at not to overly derail the PantsRants.





- Abyss, respects the rights of the pantsarantsii.

[lord of tragedy]

right on abyss. right on. ritchie your right it is subjective but i like to couch it in faux intellectualism. if someone doesn't agree with my ever so smart link between ulysees and TTH i will tug my braid. my geode must be acknowledged.

which gives me an idea........................................................

[tiam]

Well I didnt like DOD. Im not condeming it simply because its not a complete story. I didnt like the ending, some of the plot seemed contrived but maybe SE will turn it around and i know he will im just not sure to what extent. I loved TTH more so for the build up and the Kharkanas bits than the ending which although was good did not 'make' the book IMO.