[worry]

I thought Kellanved avoids sitting on that throne because he doesn't want to deal with the convergence it would cause, not for any metaphysical reason. Am I confusing it with something else?

[ansible]

I agree with Silencer's earlier comment about the reason for Shadowthrone being "stretched" is that he is sitting on multiple thrones. On the First Throne:

The Bonehunters, Bantum MMPB, p.1177 said:

Trull Sengar could comprehend the mocking absurdity of this stand. A ghost had claimed the First Throne, a thing of shadows so faded from this world even the T'lan Imass looked bloated with excess beside it. A ghost, a god, a gauze-thin web-tracing of desire, possessiveness and nefarious designs - this is what had claimed the seat of power, over all the T'lan Imass, and would now see it held, blocked against intruders.

The passage is vague, it could be metaphorical, but it also seems to be a pretty fair description of what might be one of Shadowthrone's forms still sitting upon the throne, maybe too insubstantial to really command the T'lan Imass but definitely still in control of the Throne itself. This, plus ST's recent proximity to the real Throne of Shadow in tBH, supports Cutter's comment in HoC about ST sitting on a bunch of thrones and then doing nothing. I always thought that statement seemed particularly prescient.

[SiriusL]

ansible, on 09 September 2010 - 08:26 PM, said:

I agree with Silencer's earlier comment about the reason for Shadowthrone being "stretched" is that he is sitting on multiple thrones. On the First Throne:

The Bonehunters, Bantum MMPB, p.1177 said:

Trull Sengar could comprehend the mocking absurdity of this stand. A ghost had claimed the First Throne, a thing of shadows so faded from this world even the T'lan Imass looked bloated with excess beside it. A ghost, a god, a gauze-thin web-tracing of desire, possessiveness and nefarious designs - this is what had claimed the seat of power, over all the T'lan Imass, and would now see it held, blocked against intruders.

The passage is vague, it could be metaphorical, but it also seems to be a pretty fair description of what might be one of Shadowthrone's forms still sitting upon the throne, maybe too insubstantial to really command the T'lan Imass but definitely still in control of the Throne itself. This, plus ST's recent proximity to the real Throne of Shadow in tBH, supports Cutter's comment in HoC about ST sitting on a bunch of thrones and then doing nothing. I always thought that statement seemed particularly prescient.

By sitting on them and doing nothing, he's removing their power from the game. I happen to think that may be his/Cotillion's main goal--remove power from the gods so the Empire can rule the world freely.

Another option though is that he has indeed engineered most of this, and he's reserving the throne for the Eres'al child that may or may not be Trull's as well. For a time, Trull was the Knight of Shadow. Does the King of Shadow have any say over who gets to be Knight? I would suggest that he does, given that the CG seems to be inviting people into his House willy-nilly.

[iRFNA]

I think we're gonna need Maury for this one. Trull, you are NOT the father!

Just because bottle gets a sense of what he thinks that child is for doesn't mean that's what it will be used for. It is strongly implied that kettle's soul came from the trull/eres'al baby, and thus is not gonna be ruling shadow any time soon. Even if it's what the eres'al wanted the child to be used for, you'd think it'd be clear by now that things just don't work that way in this series.

This post has been edited by iRFNA: 06 October 2010 - 08:12 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

iRFNA, on 06 October 2010 - 08:09 PM, said:

I think we're gonna need Maury for this one. Trull, you are NOT the father!

Just because bottle gets a sense of what he thinks that child is for doesn't mean that's what it will be used for. It is strongly implied that kettle's soul came from the trull/eres'al baby, and thus is not gonna be ruling shadow any time soon. Even if it's what the eres'al wanted the child to be used for, you'd think it'd be clear by now that things just don't work that way in this series.

What? When is it implied that Kettle's soul came from Trull's baby? I thought she had the soul of an FA that was given to her by the dying Azath?

Also, @Sirius. I don't think Shadowthrone was the one that sanctioned Trull as the Knight of Shadow. He doesn't have complete control over shadow (as clearly evidenced by the Hounds listening to the Edur, and everytime there's a scene between him or Cotillion and Edgewalker) and I think Trull may have been the Knight of Shadow as sanctioned by the realm itself.

[Hetan]

When Silchas talks to Kettle she told him that the Nameless Ones called her a true child of the Eres, that the Eres is her mother.

Quote

‘It was a title. They said I’d been prepared from birth. That I was a true child of Eres. And that I was the answer to the Seventh Closure, because I had the blood of kin. “The blood of kin.” What did they mean by that?’
‘When I am finally free,’ he said in a voice revealing strain, ‘I will be able to physically touch you, Kettle. My fingers upon your brow. And then I will have your answer.’
‘I guess this Eres was my real mother.’
‘Yes.’
‘And soon you will know who my father is.’
‘I will know his blood, yes. At the very least.’
‘I wonder if he’s still alive.’
‘Knowing how Eres plays the game, lass, he might not even be your father yet. She wanders time, Kettle, in a manner no-one else can even understand, much less emulate. And this is very much her world. She is
the fire that never dies.’ He paused, then said, ‘She will choose – or has chosen – with great deliberation. Your father was, is, or will be someone of great importance.’

So if you put this together with the fact that Trull was raped by the Eres, it kind of looks like Kettle could have been a child of Trull and the Eres.

Quote

For every abomination, there must emerge its answer. Its enemy, its counterbalance. Here, within this Eres’al, is such an answer. To a distant abomination, the corruption of a once-innocent spirit. Innocence must be reborn. Yet … I can see so little … not human, not even of this world, barring what the Eres’al herself brought to the union. Thus, an intruder. From another realm, a realm bereft of innocence. To make of them part of this world, one of their kind must be born … in this way. Their blood must be drawn into this world’s flow of blood.
But why an Eres’al? Because … gods below … because she is the last innocent creature, the last innocent ancestor of our line. After her … the degradation of spirit begins. The shifting of perspective, the separation from all else, the carving of borders -- in the ground, in the mind’s way of seeing. After her, there’s only … us.
The realisation -- the recognition -- was devastating. Bottle pulled his hand away. But it was too late. He knew too many things, now. The father … Tiste Edur. The child to come … the only pure candidate for a new Throne of Shadow -- a throne commanding a healed realm.

So that is where that came from.

[champ]

there is also a quote in MT where Seren is getting the Eres described to her and they explain that the Eres has a deep hidden power not fully revealed, that the child is female and the child also has a deep hidden power not yet reveaed... at first i thought it may of been seren herself but then further in the book you come to the quote above!

no book to hand at the moment to quote though...

[Tattersail_]

iRFNA, on 06 October 2010 - 08:09 PM, said:

I think we're gonna need Maury for this one. Trull, you are NOT the father!

Just because bottle gets a sense of what he thinks that child is for doesn't mean that's what it will be used for. It is strongly implied that kettle's soul came from the trull/eres'al baby, and thus is not gonna be ruling shadow any time soon. Even if it's what the eres'al wanted the child to be used for, you'd think it'd be clear by now that things just don't work that way in this series.

My Colleague and I just laughed at this link for a good five minutes. That is some funny stuff right there!

[SiriusL]

iRFNA, on 06 October 2010 - 08:09 PM, said:

I think we're gonna need Maury for this one. Trull, you are NOT the father!

Just because bottle gets a sense of what he thinks that child is for doesn't mean that's what it will be used for. It is strongly implied that kettle's soul came from the trull/eres'al baby, and thus is not gonna be ruling shadow any time soon. Even if it's what the eres'al wanted the child to be used for, you'd think it'd be clear by now that things just don't work that way in this series.

Seems like quite the bone to throw us if indeed it isn't to be. Maybe Trull/Seren's child is the replacement for Kettle. I don't know.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Hetan, on 07 October 2010 - 05:47 AM, said:

So that is where that came from.

Ah, duly noted.

[Excellence]

Silencer!

You could be on to something. All the now that you point it out purposeful mentions of Shadowthrone stretched and insubstantial... more than one shadow throne? ... it's in his name staring at us 9 books long...

If you're proved right about this, you're getting an immediate nod of approval from me. I'll even throw in raised eyebrows.