[champ]

Alreet

Just reading HoC again and something made me wonder about the whole Shadow situation, just speculating really, just stop me if this is all known and discussed...


HoC page 352 paperback between Heboric and Bidithal

"... I should warn you, however, this temple is newely resanctified. Take another step towards me, Ghost Hands, and
you will see the power of that"
"And you believe Sha'ik will permit you to kneel before Shadowthrone?"
The name whirled, his face black with rage.
"Shadowthrone? That... foreigner. The roots of Meanas are found in an elder warren! Once ruled by-" he snapped
his mouth shut, then smiled, revealing dark teeth. "Not for you. Oh no, not for you, ex-priest. There are purposes within
the Whirlwind - you existance is tolerated but little more than that..."

We know that the Shadow Warren is fragmented and split and that the Whirlwind is believed to be an off part one of these fragments. With it been
resanctified... by whom, the Whirlwind, another player, ST or do we already know? Do we know who once ruled shadow or any of its previous masters?
Obv we got the Tiste Edur etc but been a while since read them books!

Also earlier on, in MoI we learn that whilst Shadowthrone and Cotillion ascended they are actually ruling the Guardhouse of Shadow - which is also confirmed
in a latter book that they're sat on the wrong throne - a fragment either shattered or the largest out there behind the gateway?
Possibilities of an overlord above ST and Cot? I say they know the craic way too much, even for a sneaky cunning old codger and THE assassin... Yet i guess it could all of been learnt within Azath! But the having the Hounds of Shadows as guard dogs suggests something more to me! Or do you reckon all the remaining fragments of shadow are empty?

The speculation then, is a player behind the two players... or is their pure genius showing through in the grand/mad scheme of things and what do yas reckon
is their ultimate goal to come of all their plans! To me i reckon they just watched too much Pinky and The Brain!

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I would assume its referring to the Tiste Edur, the HoC quote, since we know about Kuruld Emurlahn, being "their" realm.

Who once ruled it? Edur royal family... Which we know Scabandari Bloodeye killed... Which in part triggered the Sundering... Which is what split the realm up in the first place...

Bidithal in that scene is serving the Crippled God, in any case, which would be who his master is.

Its referenced to a few times that Kellanved and Dancer have travelled further than anyone else through the Azath paths, and probably are going to be insufferably smug in terms of knowledge until the last page of the last book.

[Urizen]

champooon, on 26 October 2009 - 08:07 PM, said:

Alreet

Just reading HoC again and something made me wonder about the whole Shadow situation, just speculating really, just stop me if this is all known and discussed...


HoC page 352 paperback between Heboric and Bidithal

"... I should warn you, however, this temple is newely resanctified. Take another step towards me, Ghost Hands, and
you will see the power of that"
"And you believe Sha'ik will permit you to kneel before Shadowthrone?"
The name whirled, his face black with rage.
"Shadowthrone? That... foreigner. The roots of Meanas are found in an elder warren! Once ruled by-" he snapped
his mouth shut, then smiled, revealing dark teeth. "Not for you. Oh no, not for you, ex-priest. There are purposes within
the Whirlwind - you existance is tolerated but little more than that..."

We know that the Shadow Warren is fragmented and split and that the Whirlwind is believed to be an off part one of these fragments. With it been
resanctified... by whom, the Whirlwind, another player, ST or do we already know? Do we know who once ruled shadow or any of its previous masters?
Obv we got the Tiste Edur etc but been a while since read them books!

Given that Bidithal is Magi in Chains at this point, the sanctification is most likely in the Crippled God's name.

champooon, on 26 October 2009 - 08:07 PM, said:

Also earlier on, in MoI we learn that whilst Shadowthrone and Cotillion ascended they are actually ruling the Guardhouse of Shadow - which is also confirmed
in a latter book that they're sat on the wrong throne - a fragment either shattered or the largest out there behind the gateway?
Possibilities of an overlord above ST and Cot? I say they know the craic way too much, even for a sneaky cunning old codger and THE assassin... Yet i guess it could all of been learnt within Azath! But the having the Hounds of Shadows as guard dogs suggests something more to me! Or do you reckon all the remaining fragments of shadow are empty?

Actually it's not confirmed at all. It's merely speculation from various persons (Khalam,QB and Ganoes Paran?). But even if it's actually true as of MoI/HoC, by the end of TBH Shadowthrone has claimed the true Throne of Shadow on Drift Avali.

[Lister of Smeg]

Doesn't Cotillion also hint in his convo with the dragons in TB that the throne in the guardhouse isn't the only shadow throne that Shadowthrone is sitting on? It takes Edgewalker by surprise, IIRC.

[Mentalist]

if we are to believe TTH, another challenger to the Throne of Shadow is back, and this one used to control the Hounds and they recognise him.

but, atm, I don't see the Shadow Gods being displaced, unless they leave themselves weakened by going all out in the upcoming Chaining.

[Silencer]

The exact quote regarding the guardhouse:

"THE TRUE THRONE OF SHADOW ISN'T EVEN IN THIS FRAGMENT OF EMURLAHN!" <- Ampelas/Kalse

"And is Ammanas?" <- Cotillion

Basically stunned silence follows, plus a pointed comment by Edgy. Teehee. See what I did there?

In other words, as we see in BH, Shadowthrone is well aware of where the true throne is, and has been since HoC. He even has enchantments on it for when unexpected visitors arrive, just in case. Prior to that he relied on demons/Traveller, and before that Andarist - who we assume has no idea ST had sat on the throne.

I personally think this is the reason that Shadowthrone appears all wispy - he's sitting on the First Throne, the Shadow Throne, and maybe one or two others at the same time, making him 'stretched'. Just a thought, but I like it, anyway. XD

[chaosek]

btw not wanting a new topic on this, but since HoC is mentioned. Anybody have a theory why the KCCM cities and the dragons in the shadow realm have the same name? (Ampelas/ Klase (uprooted)). Does this mean there is a third city? Enoih Uprooted?

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I didn't think Tulas Shorn was a ruler of Shadow, in the traditional, I rule this place sense - the Hounds responded to him because as he states, he is the one that tamed them.

[eiji]

Silencer, on 27 October 2009 - 06:10 AM, said:

The exact quote regarding the guardhouse:

"THE TRUE THRONE OF SHADOW ISN'T EVEN IN THIS FRAGMENT OF EMURLAHN!" <- Ampelas/Kalse

"And is Ammanas?" <- Cotillion

Basically stunned silence follows, plus a pointed comment by Edgy. Teehee. See what I did there?

In other words, as we see in BH, Shadowthrone is well aware of where the true throne is, and has been since HoC. He even has enchantments on it for when unexpected visitors arrive, just in case. Prior to that he relied on demons/Traveller, and before that Andarist - who we assume has no idea ST had sat on the throne.

I personally think this is the reason that Shadowthrone appears all wispy - he's sitting on the First Throne, the Shadow Throne, and maybe one or two others at the same time, making him 'stretched'. Just a thought, but I like it, anyway. XD

I agree with you. hes definitely sat on more than one. His control over the T'lan waivers because hes sat on more then just theirs. (my understanding anyway) there's a line somewhere like does a shadow casts its own shadow. maybe the wispy 'stretched' ST we see is shadows own just outside its own warren

[champ]

eiji, on 27 October 2009 - 10:34 PM, said:

Silencer, on 27 October 2009 - 06:10 AM, said:

The exact quote regarding the guardhouse:

"THE TRUE THRONE OF SHADOW ISN'T EVEN IN THIS FRAGMENT OF EMURLAHN!" <- Ampelas/Kalse

"And is Ammanas?" <- Cotillion

Basically stunned silence follows, plus a pointed comment by Edgy. Teehee. See what I did there?

In other words, as we see in BH, Shadowthrone is well aware of where the true throne is, and has been since HoC. He even has enchantments on it for when unexpected visitors arrive, just in case. Prior to that he relied on demons/Traveller, and before that Andarist - who we assume has no idea ST had sat on the throne.

I personally think this is the reason that Shadowthrone appears all wispy - he's sitting on the First Throne, the Shadow Throne, and maybe one or two others at the same time, making him 'stretched'. Just a thought, but I like it, anyway. XD

I agree with you. hes definitely sat on more than one. His control over the T'lan waivers because hes sat on more then just theirs. (my understanding anyway) there's a line somewhere like does a shadow casts its own shadow. maybe the wispy 'stretched' ST we see is shadows own just outside its own warren

theres a quote in MoI that goes something like "if shadow cast a shadow, that would be the fragment that ST is ruling" referring back to the guardhouse paragraphs, but not sure if theres a quote further on?

I can see ST sat on more than the one throne and have a shaved knuckle somewhere along the series, we know hes sat on 1 or more shadow thrones and the t'lan mass first throne! absolute legend!

[Mentalist]

huh?
i'm pretty sure ST doesn't have the First Throne anymor, b/c he's no longer human, and only Imass (or their offspring) can take the First Throne.

[Sinisdar Toste]

monok ochems statement to cotillion about that very issue "as your companion loses substance, so to does he lose... veracity"
the imass don't really have to do what ST tells them anymore, but he still was the last person to sit in the throne

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 29 October 2009 - 10:37 PM

[Silencer]

Well, we both see the fact that:
- Tool and co. hear Tavore's call.
- Tool consciously resists.

These both imply that the Imass can, and probably have always been able to (cf. their war at the close of the Seven Cities campaign that left Laseen in the lurch) ignore the instructions of the Empire, but it also suggests that Shadowthrone still has enough control that they have resist. It's not just a matter of they're no longer under his power, it's just that he's not as 100% in control as he was. Or at least that was the impression that I got (and that even his original control was not perfect, just grudgingly accepted because it was too hard to resist, and they had no motivation to).

[Hetan]

Hellian, on 27 October 2009 - 05:44 PM, said:

I didn't think Tulas Shorn was a ruler of Shadow, in the traditional, I rule this place sense - the Hounds responded to him because as he states, he is the one that tamed them.

Actually he did occupy the Throne for a short period of time, but didn't learn his lesson

Doesn't Shadowthrone sit on the Shadow Throne rather than the Throne of Shadow - ie that of Meanas?

[The Dark Wanderer]

But don't we then got onto the discussion between Cotillion and Edgewalker in TBH about where the real throne is and whether ST is actually sitting on it etc etc

[Sinisdar Toste]

perhaps he has sat on it at one point. does anyone recall? when iccy and the edur are going to drift avalii in tBH, does ST materialize on the throne when the illusion is dispelled, or just in the area?

[Silencer]

Just the area. He turns up in the courtyard I think. But yes, there is the conversation I already posted in which Cotillion implies that ST is not as unaware as the rest all think him to be. Could just be Cots playing the game, though. *shrug*

[Hetan]

The Dark Wanderer, on 30 October 2009 - 04:06 PM, said:

But don't we then got onto the discussion between Cotillion and Edgewalker in TBH about where the real throne is and whether ST is actually sitting on it etc etc

How is this relevant? - “The true throne is not even in this fragment of Emurlahn.” Cotillion crossed his arms and smiled. “And is Ammanas?”
The true throne is on Drift Avali - placed there by Anomander Rake and immovable - even by Shadowthrone.

Sinisdar Toste, on 30 October 2009 - 06:07 PM, said:

perhaps he has sat on it at one point. does anyone recall? when iccy and the edur are going to drift avalii in tBH, does ST materialize on the throne when the illusion is dispelled, or just in the area?

No, he does not materialise on the throne. The throne upon which Shadowthrone sits is described in various ways throughout the books from a simple block of obsidian to icy planes, however the description of the real throne of Shadow or rather the Throne of Emurlahn remains -

"Seven paces ahead, on a raised dais, stood a throne. Carved from a single trunk of crimson wood, unplaned, broad strips of bark on its flanks, many of them split, had pulled away from the wood beneath. Shadows flowed in that bark, swam the deep grooves, spilling out to dart through the surrounding air before vanishing in the chamber’s gloom..."

"The Throne of Shadow, there on a raised dais at the far end of the room….
It has been destroyed.
Smashed to pieces, the black wood splintered to reveal its blood-red heartwood. The demons yielded us … nothing. The Throne of Kurald Emurlahn is lost to us."

[The Dark Wanderer]

I always read the line from Edgewalker as suggesting that the true throne is in Emurlahn somewhere and that the throne Ammanas is on there is the Shadowthrone (ie of Meaneas). Although the quote from Drift Avali does make me wonder about that interpretation! Could that throne be of Kurald Emurlahn and the real true throne controls Emurlahn and all its subsidaries? Or am I just streching to make my interpretation work?

[Urizen]

Hetan, on 30 October 2009 - 10:23 PM, said:

The Dark Wanderer, on 30 October 2009 - 04:06 PM, said:

But don't we then got onto the discussion between Cotillion and Edgewalker in TBH about where the real throne is and whether ST is actually sitting on it etc etc

How is this relevant? - “The true throne is not even in this fragment of Emurlahn.” Cotillion crossed his arms and smiled. “And is Ammanas?”
The true throne is on Drift Avali - placed there by Anomander Rake and immovable - even by Shadowthrone.

Sinisdar Toste, on 30 October 2009 - 06:07 PM, said:

perhaps he has sat on it at one point. does anyone recall? when iccy and the edur are going to drift avalii in tBH, does ST materialize on the throne when the illusion is dispelled, or just in the area?

No, he does not materialise on the throne. The throne upon which Shadowthrone sits is described in various ways throughout the books from a simple block of obsidian to icy planes, however the description of the real throne of Shadow or rather the Throne of Emurlahn remains -

"Seven paces ahead, on a raised dais, stood a throne. Carved from a single trunk of crimson wood, unplaned, broad strips of bark on its flanks, many of them split, had pulled away from the wood beneath. Shadows flowed in that bark, swam the deep grooves, spilling out to dart through the surrounding air before vanishing in the chamber’s gloom..."

"The Throne of Shadow, there on a raised dais at the far end of the room….
It has been destroyed.
Smashed to pieces, the black wood splintered to reveal its blood-red heartwood. The demons yielded us … nothing. The Throne of Kurald Emurlahn is lost to us."

Actually he does.

"The broken, crushed fragments of wood melted away. And once more there on the dais stood the Throne of Shadow. And stepping free of it, a shadowy form more solid than any other. Hunched, short, shrouded in folds of midnight gauze. from the indistinct smudge here a face belonged, only the eyes were visable, momentarily, a glinting flash. The figure moved away from the throne, towards the doorway...silver and ebony cane tapping on the pavestones."