[Gothos]

That's some groundbreaking stuff in this thread. As for Kallor's empire not being that badass, I'd say it's more about who you contend with than just land area. Also, it was probably a lot more densely populated than, say, Seven Cities is right now. Or middle and southern Genabackis. After all, Quon Tali isn't all that spectacular in the size departament, but it kinda kicks ass (well, did, since it seems like by now pretty much the whole population should be lying dead somewhere in the world...).

I do have a question: when can we expect the full World Map - TCG? Encyclopedia? Will that be this year, 2011, 2012 (hah, that's the coming cataclysm, eh? Wu finally revealed.)

I do have another question: what's the general climate like in Wu? We have, of course, the influence of ice fields, but what I'm asking is what would it be like without them - perhaps the temperatures would be very similar across the globe with little regard to latitude like during the cretaceus? Are places like Ladaeron Plateau, Perish and Stratem in harsh, cold climate due to some ice fields only or would they normally be more boreal than the jungles of Dal Hon or the coral shores of Jacuruku even without the Jaghut ice?

[Tsundoku]

Gothos, on 25 January 2010 - 08:54 AM, said:

That's some groundbreaking stuff in this thread. As for Kallor's empire not being that badass, I'd say it's more about who you contend with than just land area. Also, it was probably a lot more densely populated than, say, Seven Cities is right now. Or middle and southern Genabackis. After all, Quon Tali isn't all that spectacular in the size departament, but it kinda kicks ass (well, did, since it seems like by now pretty much the whole population should be lying dead somewhere in the world...).

I do have a question: when can we expect the full World Map - TCG? Encyclopedia? Will that be this year, 2011, 2012 (hah, that's the coming cataclysm, eh? Wu finally revealed.)

I do have another question: what's the general climate like in Wu? We have, of course, the influence of ice fields, but what I'm asking is what would it be like without them - perhaps the temperatures would be very similar across the globe with little regard to latitude like during the cretaceus? Are places like Ladaeron Plateau, Perish and Stratem in harsh, cold climate due to some ice fields only or would they normally be more boreal than the jungles of Dal Hon or the coral shores of Jacuruku even without the Jaghut ice?

I'm also interested in possible angle of any axial tilt, and resultant seasons. If we assume (big if) that a lot of the "ice" areas in the lands we know about are due to either altitude or Jaghut nuclear winters, and also that Wu is bigger than Earth, could that not also possibly mean that the sea distances between the continents (in the middle of the map) are bigger and/or there is a LOT of spare room east of Genabackis and west of 7C continent AND/OR there is a lot of spare sea room to the north and south of the continents as you head toward the poles?

I hope that makes as much sense in the writing as it does in my head.

[D'rek]

Sombra, on 25 January 2010 - 09:31 AM, said:

Gothos, on 25 January 2010 - 08:54 AM, said:

That's some groundbreaking stuff in this thread. As for Kallor's empire not being that badass, I'd say it's more about who you contend with than just land area. Also, it was probably a lot more densely populated than, say, Seven Cities is right now. Or middle and southern Genabackis. After all, Quon Tali isn't all that spectacular in the size departament, but it kinda kicks ass (well, did, since it seems like by now pretty much the whole population should be lying dead somewhere in the world...).

I do have a question: when can we expect the full World Map - TCG? Encyclopedia? Will that be this year, 2011, 2012 (hah, that's the coming cataclysm, eh? Wu finally revealed.)

I do have another question: what's the general climate like in Wu? We have, of course, the influence of ice fields, but what I'm asking is what would it be like without them - perhaps the temperatures would be very similar across the globe with little regard to latitude like during the cretaceus? Are places like Ladaeron Plateau, Perish and Stratem in harsh, cold climate due to some ice fields only or would they normally be more boreal than the jungles of Dal Hon or the coral shores of Jacuruku even without the Jaghut ice?

I'm also interested in possible angle of any axial tilt, and resultant seasons. If we assume (big if) that a lot of the "ice" areas in the lands we know about are due to either altitude or Jaghut nuclear winters, and also that Wu is bigger than Earth, could that not also possibly mean that the sea distances between the continents (in the middle of the map) are bigger and/or there is a LOT of spare room east of Genabackis and west of 7C continent AND/OR there is a lot of spare sea room to the north and south of the continents as you head toward the poles?

I hope that makes as much sense in the writing as it does in my head.

I don't think most of the seas can be too big, characters get across them on modestly sized ships in short periods of time (ie Karsa/Torvald's ship in HoC, Fid-Kalam-Crokus-Apsalar between GotM and DG, etc)

[Tsundoku]

D, on 25 January 2010 - 01:46 PM, said:

I don't think most of the seas can be too big, characters get across them on modestly sized ships in short periods of time (ie Karsa/Torvald's ship in HoC, Fid-Kalam-Crokus-Apsalar between GotM and DG, etc)

OK in which case to show a bit better scale shouldn't the continents be scaled down a bit, with some kept closer together to represent this, and some pushed further out as well? I mean, if it's so easy to get from Genebackis to 7C, but Lether is pretty much unknown, then shouldn't Lether be a lot farther in whatever direction it is? Which means a clump of continents in one part of a larger scale map, and Lether (at least) out on it's lonesome?

This post has been edited by Sombra: 25 January 2010 - 02:24 PM

[D'rek]

Sombra, on 25 January 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

D, on 25 January 2010 - 01:46 PM, said:

I don't think most of the seas can be too big, characters get across them on modestly sized ships in short periods of time (ie Karsa/Torvald's ship in HoC, Fid-Kalam-Crokus-Apsalar between GotM and DG, etc)

OK in which case to show a bit better scale shouldn't the continents be scaled down a bit, with some kept closer together to represent this, and some pushed further out as well? I mean, if it's so easy to get from Genebackis to 7C, but Lether is pretty much unknown, then shouldn't Lether be a lot farther in whatever direction it is? Which means a clump of continents in one part of a larger scale map, and Lether (at least) out on it's lonesome?

not necessarily. Lether can be close to 7C as the Malazans haven't spread anywhere near the lowest point of 7C, and theres a giant desert between the 7C nation the Malazan occupy and other civilizations like Shal Morzinn that would have explored outwards and easily found Lether. We'll have to assume that when the Imperial Flagship Twist visited Shal-Morzinn it didn't go south and visit Lether, or didn't even go to Shal-Morzinn via the south side of 7C.

[Werthead]

After thinking about this a bit more:

I think the idea that Shal-Morzinn were so powerful that they even sent Kellanved and Dancer fleeing in terror would be enough to keep the Malazans away from Western Seven Cities or going south beyond there towards Lether. In addition, Jacuruku sounds like it might have some other crazy magical stuff going on there (those giant warrior-statue things that randomly attack Iron Bars and co just after they get off the boat in RG) that might dissuade the Malazans from expanding past there. Finally, it sounds like there used to be regular trade across Seeker's Deep between Seven Cities, Quon Tali, Genabackis and Korel long before the Malazan Empire arose, so the Empire picking those four known-quantity landmasses to conquer first makes sense instead of venturing further afield to the known-but-feared Assail or Jacuruku.

It's also possible that the statement that the Malazan Empire had incomplete world maps is inaccurate. The publicly-available maps may show no sign of Lether, but that's not to say that Kellanved or Laseen didn't have more secret, classified information about the extent of the world.

[Tsundoku]

OK not to be a pain (intentionally ), but what about general trade routes? Tens of thousands of years of migrations waves of all sorts of races. I get it that the Malazans may not have intended to go there, but it doesn't mean that they didn't know about it. If Lether was in any way close to the other continents, then every deep water sailor would have known and spoken of it, thus would each continent have known about it. Only if Lether was as far away as maybe the New World compared to Europe, Africa and the populated/civilised parts of Asia (Kamchatka/Alaska back in the day obviously don't count), would it have been unknown.

And where's my damn axial tilt? Actually, are there references to what we would consider a "normal" seasonal pattern?

[caladanbrood]

I was under the impression that Quon was supposed to be very close to Korel - separated by a channel, rather than a sea. Maybe from one of the novellas I got that idea, I'm not sure.




On another note... here is the first paragraph of Lees of Laughter's End:

Quote

West of Theft, the Tithe Strait opens out into the Wastes. A vast stretch of ocean through which naught but the adventurous and foolhardy dared brave the treacherous, dubious sea-lanes as far west as the Red Road of Laughter's End, and from there onward to the islands of the seguleh and the southern coast of Genabackis

Suggesting there is good clear water between Theft westwards towards the Seguleh islands, even if it is a long way...

[Sinisdar Toste]

suggesting a enough area between the southern tip of shal-morzinn and the northern part of lether that you could get to genebackis just sailing straight ahead. maybe the island of the segulah needs to be to the south east of genebackis too. and wouldn't the huge coast of ice that is northern lether be quite a forbidding approach to explore?

[daftchrome]

Quote

And where's my damn axial tilt? Actually, are there references to what we would consider a "normal" seasonal pattern?

Not allowing for the effects of magic in Wu, if there was no axial tilt there would be even more pronounced differences of weather based on the positions of the continents and the location within those continents of each country/empire/area of land etc. although then you would start going into things like the shape and size of the planets orbit, the length of a day, the size and temperature from the sun and other astronomical variables. Of course its possible there is more tilt, but beyond a point there would end up being large areas suffering from prolonged times of constant sunlight or darkness

[Urizen]

Sinisdar Toste, on 26 January 2010 - 06:34 AM, said:

and wouldn't the huge coast of ice that is northern lether be quite a forbidding approach to explore?

That's what I thought too. Didn't the Lether continent have massive icefields surronding it, which would hamper any serious exploration.

[Tsundoku]

Trake, on 26 January 2010 - 08:24 AM, said:

Quote

And where's my damn axial tilt? Actually, are there references to what we would consider a "normal" seasonal pattern?

Not allowing for the effects of magic in Wu, if there was no axial tilt there would be even more pronounced differences of weather based on the positions of the continents and the location within those continents of each country/empire/area of land etc. although then you would start going into things like the shape and size of the planets orbit, the length of a day, the size and temperature from the sun and other astronomical variables. Of course its possible there is more tilt, but beyond a point there would end up being large areas suffering from prolonged times of constant sunlight or darkness

Point, but that last bit is only when you compare it to earth species that has evolved under axial tilt conditions. Would it not be reasonable to assume a non-tilted Wu would have native species that had evolved to suit the different conditions?

Quote

That's what I thought too. Didn't the Lether continent have massive icefields surronding it, which would hamper any serious exploration.

Yes, but at least they would have known something was there, unless it was only pack ice. Icebergs calve from glaciers, and that means a continent. Although our North Pole ice is pretty thick, hmmm ...

But you wouldn't get pack ice that thick unless you were at a pole, and no axial tilt means it probably wouldn't be as thick or widespread as ours is (seasonally). And any half-decent geographer would know it wasn't near a pole. Plus the Jaghut at least would have known, this the Imass would have known too (thus Kellanved at least), and the migrating waves would probably have found it and mentioned it in their oral histories etc etc etc.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 26 January 2010 - 09:57 AM

[daftchrome]

Sombra, on 26 January 2010 - 09:43 AM, said:

Trake, on 26 January 2010 - 08:24 AM, said:

And where's my damn axial tilt? Actually, are there references to what we would consider a "normal" seasonal pattern?

Not allowing for the effects of magic in Wu, if there was no axial tilt there would be even more pronounced differences of weather based on the positions of the continents and the location within those continents of each country/empire/area of land etc. although then you would start going into things like the shape and size of the planets orbit, the length of a day, the size and temperature from the sun and other astronomical variables. Of course its possible there is more tilt, but beyond a point there would end up being large areas suffering from prolonged times of constant sunlight or darkness

Point, but that last bit is only when you compare it to earth species that has evolved under axial tilt conditions. Would it not be reasonable to assume a non-tilted Wu would have native species that had evolved to suit the different conditions?

You are right, but I was more making the point that we haven't seen many season changes in Wu yet, although this can be explained that we are never in one place long enough for the season to change.

Although, now I think of it, in GotM I think Duiker and Lorn are talking about troop reinforcements and she says something along the lines of "those are all you will get before spring". And there is some definte talk of campaign seasons, but all that seems to fall by the wayside when everyone is going to war everywhere.

[D'rek]

Sombra, on 26 January 2010 - 06:03 AM, said:

Actually, are there references to what we would consider a "normal" seasonal pattern?

There are many. In fact, the references to spring and summer in GotM and DG make for a big timeline discrepancy with Lorn dying and Dujek's outlawing compared to events in Unta (which I solved by putting Quon Tali on a southern-hemisphere calendar and Genebackis on a northern-hemisphere calendar so their seasons are inverse). There's others from HoC like the army marching off in the middle of summer and stuff.

caladanbrood, on 26 January 2010 - 06:24 AM, said:

I was under the impression that Quon was supposed to be very close to Korel - separated by a channel, rather than a sea. Maybe from one of the novellas I got that idea, I'm not sure.


On another note... here is the first paragraph of Lees of Laughter's End:

Quote

West of Theft, the Tithe Strait opens out into the Wastes. A vast stretch of ocean through which naught but the adventurous and foolhardy dared brave the treacherous, dubious sea-lanes as far west as the Red Road of Laughter's End, and from there onward to the islands of the seguleh and the southern coast of Genabackis

Suggesting there is good clear water between Theft westwards towards the Seguleh islands, even if it is a long way...

I think Quon Tali (Malaz City especially) is very close to the Theftian peninsula, but that the Theftian peninsula itself juts out from Korel a fair bit so the main bodies of land of Quon Tali and Korel can still be somewhat distant.

On the LoLE quote, it might be supposed to be East instead of West. After all, the Seguleh islands are almost definitely on the west side of Genebackis, so traveling westward to them would involve going over mainland Genebackis.


Problem with Jacuruku: RG says they dropped off Iron Bars on the EAST side of it:

Quote

They had deposited the mercenaries on a stony beach of the eastern shore of a land called Jacuruku [...] determined as they were to do whatever it was they had to do, which, in this instance, was cross Jacuruku from one coast to the other, then find themselves another ship.
A huge world indeed.

Now this brings up some weird issues, actually. First of all it gives the idea Jacuruku is east of Korel, since that's where Iron Bars was headed. Then we gotta ask, why couldn't Shurq just sail them to Korel herself? Well maybe she doesn't range that far, except:

Quote

Lean and sleek, that first galley had been her passage to fame, and Shurq still regretted its fiery loss to that Mare escort in Laughter's End.

So Shurq has gone as far as Laughter's End, which by LoLE can't be too far from Korel.

Weird.

[D'rek]

Also, Varat Taun when he wakes up in Lether not remembering anything since the fleets were around 7C:

Quote

'But that is impossible. We'd two entire oceans to cross, at the very least-'

[Jorram]

The Iron Bars issue is pretty bad. On SE map this seems impossible at all. Jacuruku is east of Lether, Korel is east of Jacuruku. We could argue that it is a mistake. Also sailing from Letheras it is more feasible to go west, rather than circle around the entire Wastelands and whatever landmasses there. On the original Werthead version it made far more sense. On this map sailing west is just ocean ocean ocean eventually Assail, more ocean, but no Jacuruku.

[Werthead]

I'm wondering if there might also be some retconning going on.

For example, MT, TBH and DHG all suggest that Lether is on the far side of the world to the Malazan Empire (presumably meaning Quon Tali). They also all heavily suggest that the existence of the Letherii landmass is virtually unknown. This resulted in my prior placement of Lether in the most isolated spot possible. My rationale was that Lether should be extremely isolated, a bit like Australia but if you moved it a few thousand miles east into the middle of the South Pacific. The isolation wouldn't be total: the Letherii know of Assail and the Meckros, whose existence are also known 'on the other side' of the two regions in Genabackis and Quon Tali, but the forbidding nature of Assail and the fact that the Meckros don't really have any land of value to outsiders would make further exploration of both unattractive to both parties.

However, in RG we have the references to Letherii sailors visiting Laughter's End and in TTH there is a mention of 'Letherii traders' in Genabackis, IIRC, which also suggests that the existence of Lether is indeed known and more widespread than previously thought, which seems in total opposition to what had previously been established. It may well be that SE and ICE believed Lether being fairly close to 7C, Korel and Quon Tali yet also being unknown to them to be viable, but as they thought about it more, the more they agreed that Lether shouldn't be totally unknown in that location and decided to change things so some people did know of its existence.

As for coming up to Jacuruku's east shore, the only possibility I can come up with is that the ocean east of Lether, south of Jacuruku and west of Quon Tali/Korel (the Horn Ocean, I'm guessing) has a big counter-clockwise current, and after sailing south around Lether, it was easier and faster for Shurq to follow the current which carried her ship up the coast of Korel and then brought her to the eastern shores of Korel. Of course, in that case it would be easier to simply drop Iron Bars off on Korel in the first place, and it would be unnecessary for Iron Bars to fight his way across Jacuruku as he was already on the right side of the continent to catch a ride home.

I'm starting to get timeline vibes from the geography now which is annoying, as I thought my prior maps worked pretty well and answered all the geographic questions apart from a few very minor issues (the east/west thing Theft to Seguleh thing, for example) fairly neatly. The revelation of the 'real deal' seems to have simply confused the issue, unless I've misunderstood some things.

This post has been edited by Werthead: 26 January 2010 - 11:19 PM

[D'rek]

Jorram, on 26 January 2010 - 08:55 PM, said:

The Iron Bars issue is pretty bad. On SE map this seems impossible at all. Jacuruku is east of Lether, Korel is east of Jacuruku. We could argue that it is a mistake. Also sailing from Letheras it is more feasible to go west, rather than circle around the entire Wastelands and whatever landmasses there. On the original Werthead version it made far more sense. On this map sailing west is just ocean ocean ocean eventually Assail, more ocean, but no Jacuruku.

I was thinking along the same lines - around Lether there's the wastelands, and around that part of 7C is Shal-Morzinn, so why would Shurq go off pirating in that direction? The West side of the Lether continent has to be somewhat available or else how would Iron Bars and co. have gotten to northwest Lether anyways? So, Wert, I think you need more vertical space in your map (Mal says it's not Earth-sized anyways, right?), enough to move Assail out of Lether's way.

I decided to try a rudimentary paint move-around with Jacuruku:
 mala-drekv.jpg (96.72K)
Number of downloads: 18

Pink would be what Shurq has to do to get Iron Bars to the east shore of Jacuruku. The big red blotch is approximately where Laughter's End would be (from LoLE and Shurq saying there was a Mare escort there, ie it has to be close to eastern Korel where Mare is).

[Abalieno]

I really DO hope that the Encyclopedia will never be made because it would only enhance the problems all around. And a revision of all the books is still the unlikely but the only proper way to address all this.

In other words: the possibility that Erikson will clear out these doubt and give us an univocal answer is pretty remote. Let's just call the best effort and be content with it.

Considering that we also got no new maps in the latest books (and no appendices, and dramatis persona more and more sparse), it seems also unlikely we'll get more official material.

This post has been edited by Abalieno: 27 January 2010 - 02:31 AM

[Vesper]

Something to remember is that if people in Seven Cities have black skin, that corresponds to around the equator on Earth. The world can't be much larger than Earth (or else there would be some gravity issues) so when creating the map take into account how the latitude would affect the climate.

For comparison purposes, here's a map of skin tone by region of the world:



Note how altitude also affects skin tone around Nepal... the entire of the Himalayas is considerably lighter.

On a less-critical note, I'm really impressed with how well put-together and professional-looking those maps are. I mean, there aren't really any geographical features depicted (beyond the Aurgatt Range in the first one), but you have realistic coast-lines (particularly on the coast of the Calash sea) and shapes. What kind of program did you use to put these together?

This post has been edited by Vesper: 16 February 2010 - 06:12 AM